Tunnings?

[Scott Danneker]

Greetings all, I have  question or four.

1) If I am playing in standard minstrel tuning (dGDF#A) and a harmonica player wishes to toot along, which key harmonica should the harmonica player select?

2) If I am playing in another minstrel tuning (dADF#A -"high bass"?) and a harmonica player wishes to toot along, which key harmonica should the harmonica player select?

3) If I am playing in yet another minstrel type tuning (dGDGA -"double-d" in old time?) and a harmonica player wishes to play along, upon which key harmonica should the player toot?

4) Finally; if I am playing in yet one more minstrel type tuning (dADGA -"Sawmill" in old time"?) and a harmonica player wishes to play along, upon which harmonica key should the player blow?

Many thanks,

-Scott Danneker

[Al Smitley]

Dan'l's first sentence reads exactly as the response my mind was constructing.  But then I thought, "Maybe there's something I'm not considering." and left it be.

[Strumelia]

D'anl's response is great-  gives a lot of good info and clear explanation, and covers multiple possible approaches to solving the 'harmonica dilemma'.

I'd like to add a little bit for folks who are not skilled yet at simply 'hearing' what key/tonic they are playing in (and you might want to work on that, since 'hearing' the tonic note is a real useful skill), and fo rthe benefit of those who may only yet know how to play in one basic position for a tuning.

Here's a very over-simplified and generalized beginner sort of way to approach the harmonia/key thing:

1) If I am playing in standard minstrel tuning (dGDF#A) and a harmonica player wishes to toot along, which key harmonica should the harmonica player select?

2) If I am playing in another minstrel tuning (dADF#A -"high bass"?) and a harmonica player wishes to toot along, which key harmonica should the harmonica player select?

3) If I am playing in yet another minstrel type tuning (dGDGA -"double-d" in old time?) and a harmonica player wishes to play along, upon which key harmonica should the player toot?

4) Finally; if I am playing in yet one more minstrel type tuning (dADGA -"Sawmill" in old time"?) and a harmonica player wishes to play along, upon which harmonica key should the player blow?

1) G

2) D

3) aDADE in oldtime=doubleD= key of D.  So 3.5 steps down to dGDGA you'd simply be playing your doubleD clawhammer/oldtime tunes in 'doubleG' = key of G.  Note that it's the same as standard Briggs dGDF#A (key of G), except you've raised the second string string a half step and no longer need to fret it on the first fret when playing the tonic G chord.  You're not changing the key from Briggs, but you're basically switching to 'oldtime' fingering positions.

4) along the same lines as 3), in dADGA you are trying to do the equivalent of sawmill tuning but 2.5 steps down in D rather than G...so the harmonica would be playing in Dmodal or Dminor or whatever it is that harmonicas would do for that.  Again, you would then play your familiar Gmodal tunes but you'd be in the key of D and would sound 'modal' or minor.

Whether or not your strings and tension would be happy in any of these is something to experiment with.

One point- you seem to be renaming oldtime tunings as "a minstrel type tuning" simply because you've cranked it down low.  I think this is problematic since arguably, tunings should be called 'minstrel tunings' only if they are/were typically used to play minstrel repertoire and in stroke style fingerings.  There is more to playing in 'minstrel style' than just making oldtime stuff lower, so I'd suggest not calling 3) and 4)  "minstrel type tunings".  IMHO 3) and 4) would be more accurately called 'lowered clawhammer/oldtime tunings'.

Hope this helps and that I haven't made any note mistakes.    :)

[Scott Danneker]

Lisa, Dan’l, & Al,

Many thanks to all of you for your thoughtful responses; the information you have provided will be extremely useful.

To summarize the basics:

dGDF#A (low bass) = G

dADF#A (high bass) = D

dGDGA ('lowered clawhammer/oldtime tuning') = G

dADGA = play solo in this tuning (w/oH)

I agree with Lisa’s comments regarding ‘minstrel type tunings”.  I used that term only because I recently heard it employed exclusively by a very talented player as he performed the old Briggs, Rice, &c. standards that we are all familiar with.

Again, many thanks!

-Scott    

PS:  Are you getting all of this Tom?

[Scott Danneker]

Another question:

If memory serves, on pre-Sweeney four-stringed instruments it is the bass string is that is missing - yes?  If true, in the context of the above discussion, when strummed open would pre-Sweeney's (like Mark Weems' & Joe Ayres' instruments) be considered to be tuned in G (low bass), D (high bass), or something entirely different?  Sorry if I'm boring you all with these question, but just I'm curious. 

Cheers for now,

-Scott

[Strumelia]

Missing the bass string would not change the same way that the two keys (G & D) are played.

The key would be determined by where your tonic/key note was when you play the tune.

dGDF#A (low bass) = G

-becomes dDF#A  = still key of G when your tonic chord is played the same as in Briggs tuning (first fret 2nd string and second fret on 1st string)- the G chord.

dADF#A (high bass) = D

becomes dDF#A = still key of D when your tonic/key note is the middle D string, the tonic chord is strummed open (just like in clawhammer gDGBD, or gGBD if you removed the bass string).

Removing the bass string does not change anything except that it removes some availability of lower notes.  It's where you have the tonic/key note or chord located in any tuning that determines what key you are playing in.  That's why you can be in one tuning but can play in two different keys for example.  

Think about this: lots of minstrel era tunes can be played without using the bass string at all...so you don't even 'have to' alter your lowbass/highbass string to switch and play in either key of G (low bass) or D (high bass) anyway.

[Tom Taggart]

This is really good stuff.  Kind of makes my head hurt, but I think I am getting the gist of it.

[Al Smitley]

Again, I agree with Dan'l.  Are we too simple-minded?

[Strumelia]

If I'm not mistaken, I think the reason for the original questions is because Scott is trying to figure out what key he'll be playing in when he's in these various tunings.  If he knew, then he'd just be able to tell the harmonica player what key he'll be playing in.   That's why I'm responding this way.  It's something I remember struggling with myself not long ago.  Maybe Scott can clarify this for us.

I may indeed be simple-minded and missing the point!

[Al Smitley]

Strum..... I meant are Dan'l and I being too simple-minded.

You probably explained Scott's original inquiry correctly.

[Strumelia]

Oh, too funny.  Thanks Al... I'm sure we all are occasionally clueless here at one time or another!  :)

[Scott Danneker]

 Alas, my true motivation for all of this has been revealed, my compliments Strumelia, you were spot on. I have indeed been ‘trying to figure out what key I’m playing in’ when using these various tunings. This question came up about two or three weekends ago while playing with two other minstrel banjo players.  I was tuned to 'high bass", another was tuned to, 'low bass' while the third was tuned to 'double G' the lowered old time/claw hammer tuning.   Of course when we asked each other what tuning we were in, none of us seemed to have a useful answer except perhaps to say 'minstrel tuning.'  I framed the question to you in the context of a harmonica player because I will be doing precisely that this weekend with a player who has a whole bag full of them, all of different keys, hence that approach.  Additionally, I have not yet reached the level of skill or knowledge to readily play in a different key out of a given tuning, but this conversation has certainly provided more than a little incentive for me to begin remedying this situation.  So you see, the only ‘simple mindedness’ displayed in this thread has been my own.

Cheers,

-Scott

[Strumelia]

I think it's a FINE thread, and the issues you've brought up Scott are faced by many folks who come to minstrel playing through a personal journey, by way of oldtime or bluegrass playing styles of banjo.  These concepts are in fact not that easy to grasp, but grasping them opens up a whole toolbox of practical possibilities for us as banjo players.  So I think it's great and timely that you brought all this up.

That said, I'll now finally confess that I always grit my teeth a little when people write "tunnings' instead of "tunings".   I hope not to offend by mentioning this. Tunning would rhyme with running,  while tuning rhymes with pruning.    :)