1850 "Old-time banjo picker" quote

[EggerRidgeBoy]

In a recent thread on BanjoHangout (http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/223127/4/#2840858), someone referenced the following quote from Pete Seeger's "How to Play the Five-String Banjo":

"...can I read notes?  Hell, there are no notes to a banjo.  You just play it."

Reply made by an old-time banjo picker, interviewed around 1850, and asked if he could read music.

 

To which I replied:

I've always been skeptical of the 1850 date for that quote.  It seems to me more likely to have been from 1950.  I mean, in 1850 the banjo had been part of "mainstream" (white) American culture for less than a decade, and there wouldn't really have been such a thing as an "old-time banjo picker". Unless the reference was to an African-American banjo player, which, although possible, seems unlikely - I know some of the early minstrel banjoists described learning the instrument from African-American musicians, but I don't know of any recorded interviews of or quotes by black players themselves from such an early date.  I always wondered if it weren't simply a misprint, although if that were the case I'm guessing Pete would have cleared it up decades ago.

Anyway, just something I wonder about every time I see that quote.

 

Someone then correctly pointed out that while the quote itself might be from around 1850, Pete's attribution - to "an old-time banjo picker" - might well reflect his circa 1950 viewpoint. 

At any rate, that still leaves me wondering about the source of that 1850 quote, if it is indeed authentic.  Could it be from one of the early tutors, or from the later recollections of someone like Frank Converse?  Any thoughts on whether it is an actual quote from that time period?  What little I know of such subjects I have learned from the experts on this site, so I figured this was the place to ask.

[Strumelia]

Hmm, why would an old banjo tutor book, which is chock full of 'notes', have that advice in it?

Such folk wisdom quotes get endlessly recycled and tossed around.  Recently I saw t-shirts with: "There ain't no notes on a mountain dulcimer, you just play it."-Old Joe Clark, 1892  -supposedly said by 'Old Joe Clark'.  Another variation I see is a poster that says "There ain't no right or wrong on a mountain dulcimer, you just play it."-Old Joe Clark.

I'd wager the Seeger 1850 quote was a 1950s-60s variation as well.  Could have easily been written about fiddles as well.

And what about the oft repeated reply to Do you know how to read music?..."Not enough to hurt my playing." which is variously attributed to Seeger, Louis Armstrong, and a bunch of other musicians.

[Joel Hooks]

Yep. It sure does sound "folksy," and "old timey."

Strumelia said:

Hmm, why would an old banjo tutor book, which is chock full of 'notes', have that advice in it?

Such folk wisdom quotes get endlessly recycled and tossed around.  Recently I saw t-shirts with: "There ain't no notes on a mountain dulcimer, you just play it."-Old Joe Clark, 1892  -supposedly said by 'Old Joe Clark'.  Another variation I see is a poster that says "There ain't no right or wrong on a mountain dulcimer, you just play it."-Old Joe Clark.

I'd wager the Seeger 1850 quote was a 1950s-60s variation as well.  Could have easily been written about fiddles as well.

And what about the oft repeated reply to Do you know how to read music?..."Not enough to hurt my playing." which is variously attributed to Seeger, Louis Armstrong, and a bunch of other musicians.

[Ian Bell]

I think I heard an olde-tyme synth player say that in 1971.

[Strumelia]

lol!   Ian

Yeah, it was maybe on the liner notes of my mother's LP of "Switched On Bach".  Gotta love that Moog!

[Bell Banjos]

A few years ago my brother said," You're weird, you play instruments with no notes on 'em."

I said, "WHAT?"

He said, "In school you played the trombone, now you play the fiddle, slide guitar, and that goofy banjo with no frets."

So, the person in the fable is ME.

[Carl Anderton]

It was a period quote, uttered by Fred Mathers in a Cadenza article in the late 1890's/early 1900's, as he discussed the early days of the banjo.  It was probably a cliche, then and now, but I can vouchsafe its use in the aforementioned period.

[Joel Hooks]

Well how about that.  So he was off by about 50 years?  Was it quoted to show how far the banjo had come?  Did Pete read old banjo publications and then claim to invent things? The use of that quote brings up  a question of the old "passed down" nonsense.  Perhaps the "old timer" folk banjoists were using the tutors.  I know Pete lists many in the back of his book including the early ones and the ABM. 

Carl Anderton said:

It was a period quote, uttered by Fred Mathers in a Cadenza article in the late 1890's/early 1900's, as he discussed the early days of the banjo.  It was probably a cliche, then and now, but I can vouchsafe its use in the aforementioned period.

[Strumelia]

 Perhaps the "old timer" folk banjoists were using the tutors.

I guess a lot depends on whether a particular banjo player could read music back then, and what kind of 'old-timer' banjoist one means - a stationary rural mountain person, a traveling performer, etc..?

I'm guessing many of the tunes/songs in the tutors were passed around by ear.  The tutor featured 'popular' songs performed back then in traveling shows, no?

[EggerRidgeBoy]

Thanks to all for the information and discussion.

[EggerRidgeBoy]

Hmm, I guess I should have dug deeper into the archives before posting my question - I would have found this three-year-old post from Dan'l:

 

Reply by Dan'l on November 9, 2008 at 12:51am

"I remember only 3 banjoists who read notes..."
Excerpt from the writings of Fred Mather, a contemporary of Joe Sweeney (Famous and well-known Minstrel player who popularized the the added bass string / hoop rim / adjusted tightener style of banjo that accompanied the Minstrel boom mid 19th century). Mather was a Minstrel banjoist himself. Here's the context of his comment which included a mention of Converse:
“ I do not read music but can spell it out painfully, note by note. In the long ago, when I was a fair manipulator of the ‘gourd shell,’ I remember only three banjoists who read notes. They were Dan Emmett, G. Swayne Buckley and Frank B. Converse, who, by the way, was on the stage but a short time. Joe Sweeney didn’t know a note, nor did most of the banjoists of 40 or 50 years ago. In fact, when I was a boy, I often heard it said: ‘There are no notes to banjo, you just play it.”
Dan Wykes
(reference: “Joel Sweeney and The First Banjo”, Arthur Woodward, in Los Angeles County Museum Quarterly Spring 1949, vols. 3, 7.