24 inch scale why?

[CW Bayer]

I have an 1860/ banjo with a 24 inch scale. Why did scale length shorten from the 1850s to the 1869s? Perhaps this has been discussed but I'm wondering.

[Paul Draper]

CW - could you post a few photos of your banjo if you get a chance. I can't see it very well from your icon photo.. Thanks.

[CW Bayer]

Ok...see if this works.

[CW Bayer]

Hmmm. it worked...I'll post a few more soon.

[Paul Draper]

Thanks CW. Is this the banjo you used for the recordings on your Goldrush site? Sounds great!

[CW Bayer]

Yes. I suspect it was made by Tom Bree while working on the Gould and Curry Mine as a machinist. Metric threads on the hooks--suggesting some place with strong European influence. That would be Virginia City in the 1860s. I think the rim was made by or influenced by Charles Morrell--nearly identical to the Sam Pride banjo rim. Only this one has HEAVY nickel cladding. The rim is VERY solid. Banjo has a deep sound. I found another banjo with an identical neck--Bob Bowlin had it. The banjo was probably built for Lyman Frisbee who owned the Old Corner saloon just down the street from me. I could go on....and on....

[CW Bayer]

Oh...and my view of the 24" scale...I think it reflects the diversification of minstrelsy into Irish and German stereotypes along with the incorporation of more complex melodies that required more fingering. Not everyone did that but those who did need an instrument with closer fret spaces, albeit inlaid. Just my thought.

[CW Bayer]

Two more photos

[CW Bayer]

Trying again, Here is the heel...and cladding.

[Joel Hooks]

Nice Banjo!  It does look on the early side of the 1870s, being well made.  I cannot tell from the photos if the peg head inlay is true to the shape of the head.  Perhaps the neck had been reworked?

The fifth peg is a nice touch and can be found on other "New York" style banjos.  I'm interested in seeing the inside and back of the neck.

For reference as to the challenge of dating banjos I have attached some catalog pages from the 1880s.

And also for reference is a pretty common layout of available hardware from1883.

[CW Bayer]

Thanks. Morrell and Bree both came from New York. What exactly is the New York style of fifth string peg? I have two necks like this that are identical--the ivory around the edge of each peghead. One with ivory pegs. The other with ebony. The latter has the original pot--heavy clad. I'll try to put up shots of the Sam Pride banjo (made by Morrell) inner rim and my inner rim. They are very similar and unusually heavy/reinforced. Add the cladding as on mine and the rim on mine is about 1/2 inch thick. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this reinforcing.

[Joel Hooks]

In a nutshell.  There was a banjo building duo, Albert Wilson and William Farnham in Troy, NY.  They are said to have first made "silver rim" banjos about 1855.  Their production was small and the trade was limited to professional minstrels.  A defining factor was that the neck was bolted on to the rim.

A little later was Jimmy Clarke (former stage minstrel that contracted TB) of New York City.  He made Troy style banjos for pros as well (see the photo of Frank Converse holding a banjo in my photos).  His was also limited production.

"New York School" banjos (Converse's words) were in the style of Clarke banjos.  Or in other words, knock offs-- imitations.  These were made to look like what you saw Frank Converse, Horace Weston, George Coes, etc., playing.  Think cheap Chinese versions of famous electric guitars-- that is what these were.

Most (if not all) were made by the J. Buckbee factory post war in NYC.  These answered a call for the trade.  People wanted to play the banjo because they saw a minstrel show.  Naturally they wanted banjos like what they saw used on stage.  Some of these are good.  Some are great.  Most… not so much.

Just like today, you will not get the banjo that Bela Fleck plays-- but Gold Tone will sell you one that looks like it made in China.

Hopefully Rob Morrison will chime in.  He is the resident authority on early Buckbee banjos.

[CW Bayer]

The two fifth string pegs. Shot of rim and hook. 3 1/8 inches deep.