Getting to know the tune

[Tim Twiss]

I was playing in the Briggs' book this morning, looking at "Zip Coon"...never really did it before. Then I got to looking at ""Going Ober De Mountains" and "Nebber Do To Gib It Up So". I already explored these tunes and have vocal versions of them. They seemed easy to play from Briggs' because I knew the tune, having sifted through the Levy collection and the Hans Nathan book. The version in the Briggs' is nice, and it is something one might play in between verses in a vocal performance. It made me think about playing jazz tunes in "The Real Book" where young players (myself being guilty of this) play the songs with little knowledge of the actual tune and melody. It becomes an excuse to "get the head out of the way" in order to play a cool solo, usually being set improvisational licks that fit on any tune in the same format. When I first started, I did not know any of these old Minstrel songs, so the arrangement of the tune had no separation from the original melody. The result was a memorized finger game. Of course it was a cool sounding thing to play, but is a different experience from knowing and being familiar with the actual song. So many of the Briggs' are such songs. I still have never done "Alabama Joe" as a vocal tune, so it is still a set arrangement for me, which is okay, but I still intend to check it out...(that being one that is not very appropriate as a vocal tune anyway).

[Trapdoor2]

So, you're saying you've internalized the method and the style and are starting to branch out into Stroke Style improvisation?

That is a very cool step...and a steep one. I can do it in OT clawhammer and rely on it to such an extent that I now have only a dozen or so 'canned tunes' (solos I can trot out instantly). Otherwise, I usually just need to know the key. If the tune is truly unfamiliar, I let the fiddler solo it a couple times thru and then off I go. Thankfully the OT genre doesn't require solo breaks, as I'm not *that* good at it. ;-)

[Tim Twiss]

Oh no, not saying that. I'm just thinking about how people can play without giving any importance to the melody.

One thing that attracts me to this style is the NOT improvising. Something very satisfying about sticking to the tune...
I'm pretty burnt out on improvisation.

[Carl Anderton]

I think we should define improvisation in regards to our particular style. I like to use a certain amount of "improv" but it certaintly isn't a Coltrane-like free-flow of ideas. It's just a note or two changed here and there to keep if relatively fresh, maybe a period "lick" thrown in sometimes. Keeping the melody intact is surely vital to this style. It would be interesting to research the history of improv as to how it relates to mid-19th century popular music.

Hope I'm not veering off-topic too quickly here...

[Trapdoor2]

I guess I was having trouble articulating my thoughts. I don't expect Stroke Style beebop...what I was thinking Tim was talking about was creating instrumental solos around songs where "written-out" solos don't exist. The melody is there and usually the structure (chords, harmonies, etc.) but no "banjo solo". Sort of like "Da Glendy Burke" has basic "backup" patterns but nothing like a cool Stroke solo. Does that make sense?

[Rob MacKillop]

There are generally two approaches to improv - decorate the tune or forget the tune and play with the underlying chords. It is, of course, possible to do a bit of both. I guess the question is what would be a HIP response? Slotting a solo arrangement by Briggs or anyone else into a break in a song format would probably sound not quite right. Looking outwith the banjo repertoire might give us some clues, but might also lead us astray.

Often the song accompaniment by Briggs and others reveals a guitar influence - and Briggs also suggests a guitar technique for these accompaniments. So, what did guitarists do in these situations? I can't think of any song arrangements in 19thC-guitar repertoire which include a solo. Can you? There are plenty of 'symphonies' - intros and outros - and very often they follow the melody. As Tim was looking for ''something one might play in between verses in a vocal performance'', I would suggest a shorter 'symphony' rather than a whole verse-long solo.


An interesting topic. Let's hear more!

[Rob MacKillop]

Tim, I've just been reading for the first time Phil Rice's book. I know you are a big admirer of this book, so this should interest you - in fact you already know it...

Pages 16-17 discuss how to play 'Jonny Boker'. It is interesting to compare the vocal line to the accompaniment. The first three bars pretty much follow the melody, then in the fourth bar he inserts a harmonic line. Ditto bar 8. But the really interesting part for the present discussion is the 'symphony' (he even calls it that) at the foot of the page, which is a slight variation on the last four bars. It helps you get your breath back before singing the next verse. Not quite a full solo, but it does seem to be performance practice for the period.

[Rob MacKillop]

Also page 21 - a 'symphony' introduction to Hoop de Dooden Doo, which is notated to be repeated, so is 8 bars long, and is probably repeated after (or before) each verse.

There are other examples in the book. They seem to be variations on the final two or four bars of the accompaniment. So, I would be tempted to conclude that if no symphony is written, you could (should?) add your own based on the final bars, rather than a 'solo' for a full verse.

[Jim Moffet]

Reading this thread makes me think of "Pop Goes the Weasel." That is written ABC, but the C strain is a gussied up verion of A. I initally thought of it as a rudimentary 'fugue" on the basic A strain. Do you think that its a simple breakdown, or an example of 'how one might create a solo (or a breakdown) out of a basic tune?' There are vocals for "Pop...". If you were performing it, would you plug the "C" strain in at the end?

Jim

[Tim Twiss]

This has been an interesting thread, and one worth continuing. My original thought, however poorly I ended up expressing it, was about learning the melody of a song stripped of its arrangement. I think there is value in that. I found the songs in Briggs in the Levy collection, and then compared them to the original. The Briggs' arrangements made much more sense after doing so.

[Rob MacKillop]

In that case, I completely misread you. LOL. But, yes, it has been an interesting discussion nonetheless.

I now understand you (I hope) - learning the melody as a song can help our understanding of a solo arrangement. For sure. And most people would have known these songs as they were the pop songs of the day. Although I have the worst voice in the world and would never sing publicly, I very much enjoy the song performances on this site, as they really help me to understand better the solo arrangements. Lucy Long, being a recent contribution - that solo arrangement is now much more meaningful to me.

So, sing away, gentlemen, sing away...

[Tim Twiss]

We should continue with the discussion of improvisation and variation in this style. Frankly, it is something I have given very little thought to. This music has been an oasis of sorts for me, because no improvisation is needed, but you can fudge around a little with few social sanctions. It is a world in between the "never varied" classical school of thought, and the "never do it the same twice" jazz school of thought. I like the set arrangements. There are certainly enough tunes that an improvisation of sorts is obtained by skillfully intertwining all the tunes that are kind of the same into an exciting medley...surprising yourself as well as others as one goes into the other. It is improv of another dimension.
Something does come up in song performance and form, where there is not only an interlude between verses (see the Hans Nathan Book for a number of these ideas) but often an instrumental verse, say between the 3rd and 4th verse of a tune. Whether or not it was played straight, I don't know. My guess is that it was a fairly straight rendition of the melody played by whatever melodic instruments were in the ensemble. I'm sure the idea of counterlines was important, and maybe this was a forshadowing of the early jazz ensembles whose improv was very melody based.

[John Masciale]

I would think that looking at band arrangements and vocal arrangements would provide a good idea as to how melody/counter melody were typically used at the time. I don't think that the piano arrangements reflect this nearly as well.