Violin, where do I begin?

[Chris Prieto]

So I have recently met a mandolin and fiddle player who doesn't play bluegrass or jazz and seems to have no real genre of music he prefers, naturally I am trying to shove a bunch of good tunes in his face so he can play the violin with me.

However, I am unsure where to begin. Is there something for the violin that is like the Briggs book for stroke style? Should I generally play in e/a or g/d? Can I just bring banjo music or does he need violin specific music? Or are there any tutors that work together kind of like Wayne Erbsen did with mountain music series, separate books for different instruments but all the same music.

I just don't know what tunes are good to start with. I was thinking rumseys jig might be good, but I have no idea what makes for a difficult or easy fiddle tune.

[Al Smitley]

Don't have time to respond fully (will later), but sometimes open drone strings make the key of 'A' work well but generally, I'd play in 'D' and 'G'.  Let the violinist figure out their own melody line to fit with minstrel banjo because the notes in the banjo tutorials simply aren't conducive to violin.....and why should they, they are created for minstrel banjo style.  More later.  I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about this but I can offer my experiences, perhaps without bothering everyone else on this site.  How do we exchange email addresses?

[Paul Draper]

Hey Al - I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the subject as I may be in the very early stages of breaking in a fiddler... I was going to throw a bunch of tutor tunes at her and let her fend for herself...

[John Masciale]

I have put together a number of period tunes from various sources in the keys of D and G.  I don't want to put this out publicly, but if you contact me I will send you a link where you can download a copy.  I use these for my own personal use and have used them at reenactments when putting together ensembles.

[Chris Prieto]

Alright thanks for the feedback! I was thinking it maybe it was a fend for themselves type of thing.

I was considering giving him some tunes from the Emmet book since that's all fiddle stuffs. I will more than likely show up with a pile of tutors and books and see where it goes.

If he can play black cat white cat even 25% as good as Al does we'll be in business.

[Al Smitley]

John, I'd be interested in your collection of period tunes as well if you can tell me how to access and pay for them.

I like a lot of the period tunes that aren't in the minstrel genre, such as those for the social orchestra and brass bands.

[Al Smitley]

Well, since I said I'd respond later, I'll try but not at all sure where to go.  Maybe Wes and Mark will also respond. Also, watch Strum and her husband's videos, though I believe he often uses some form of open tuning.   If your prospective fiddler is new to minstrel tunes, I think I'd break him in with some familiar tunes (Foster, etc) because minstrel tunes can be a little hard for a fiddler to grab on to right away because, as I said, they often make more sense to the banjoist than the fiddler.  Let them come up with their own versions of the tunes because playing them straight from the tutorials will not work well.  I think (in the G/D tuning), the D (drone) is often a "filler" note.  Therefore, unless it is part of the melody, I've found that it is the one that would get in the way if reading straight from the page.  The fiddler will play a simpler version most of the time.  I remember wondering how a minstrel fiddler was supposed to play and I'm still not sure as I don't know of any period publication that illustrates it.  There are certainly period violin tutors but I don't know of any that show how to play minstrel-style tunes.  I think Chuck Krepley has given a couple of workshops on it but I think his take would probably be similar to what I'm saying.  Whether you ad double stops, etc, I guess would be a matter of style.  I guess now that I've written this much, I have to confess that I don't know the answer!  I wish there were recordings from mid-19 C!  Again, I guess my main suggestion, would be to start with tunes that are somewhat familiar and let the fiddler learn to become accustomed to the more "banjoistic" tunes, gradually.  Maybe give him/her some recordings and/or YouTube addresses. 

Wes?  Mark?  I'd be interested in your additions, subtractions and/or corrections.

[Al Smitley]

A thought just occurred to me......If Bob Winans checks this site, did you give Vinny Tufo any instruction on playing fiddle on "The Early Minstrel Show" or did he have any means of researching his approach?

[Chris Prieto]

Thanks Al. I do feel you make a good point and perhaps and I am thinking of things wrong when I think "minstrel violin" when really it's just "violin" with a fancy dood playing it. But I get what you're saying. It's kind of like how my banjo teacher explained playing folky tunes with guitarist. Told me not to worry about it and that a decent guitarist would know if he needed to capo and all that good stuff.

So I am thinking an amalgamation of some of the tunes John so graciously sent over, a few tutors (Rice n Briggs), some tabs and general openness to not using any of that stuff and just going at it by ear. Sheet music and videos does seem like a good starting point too.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up

[Al Smitley]

Uh oh!   If you're taking any of my advice, that scares me because whatever experience I have related is not necessarily reflective of how 19th C minstrel fiddlers played.  I really have no idea!  There may have been a specific style that they used but as far as I know, no one has identified it.   I do have to presume, however, that minstrel fiddlers did not play, note-for-note, the exact same notes that are in the banjo tutorials.

[Chris Prieto]

Yeah I mean at the end of the day he is either feelin it or he ain't haha one thing I really enjoy about the fiddle is that it really does allow ones style to really shine.

So long as we can kick up a lil groovy together I will be very happy.

[Wes Merchant]

This is an interesting topic to ponder. I have a couple of period violin books, here's a link to one I've scanned https://archive.org/details/ViolinWithoutAMaster. Most of these books that I've seen offer a variety of dance tunes, popular songs (including minstrel tunes) and some classical pieces. It's interesting to note that though we on this forum refer to fiddlers I've yet to see a period tune book use that term. This to me reinforces that these were accomplished professional stage musicians

One thing I've found interesting is looking at is some of the old show bills and programs, there are bunch of them posted on the Harvard University site. You'll notice that not everything was played by the ensemble, but rather there were solos (banjo, violin, even tambourine) worked in there as well, so look for what seems naturally to fit both instruments. I agree with Al that the banjo sheet music is not necessarily played note for note on the fiddle.

It seems to me that at least one of the tutors says there are 3 natural keys for the banjo, A,E and D. Now this may have been more common once the fretted banjo became common. I find playing in D in A tuning is really not too daunting, once you wrap your mind around it.  Also keep in mind that Briggs did give instruction on retuning to play in different keys and suggest that this be practiced to gain some proficiency.