tin whistle

Not strictly banjo - But I thought some of the Civil War era- music specialists in the group might have an opinion on this. I picked up this old tinwhistle at an estate auction. It has what looks like a "government issue" type stamp on it. Below that, in the circle is a "C" (the key it's in) It's not a band instrument. Would the army ever have actually issued or sold something like this? It still plays nicely but has a lead fipple (the part you put in your mouth) so I don't play it all that much! See other shot as well.

  • Sylvia

    I'm not a Civil War specialist , but the words of a song come to mind....." musket , fyfe and drum " . Drum to beat marching time, the fyfe to add a bit of lightness. ( for fyfe read tin whistle). Ideal for an army marching to a battle. ?
  • razyn

    Seems like this would be a good time to hear from Elaine Masciale, she plays these things. And I don't, but I have a few. Anyway a fife, properly speaking, is a keyless transverse flute (not the tin whistle or recorder type), and doesn't have a fipple, as such. And I believe that except for brass (bugles and such) -- used for signaling because they can be heard farther -- fife and drum has long been the standard military music of western Europe and the Americas. Certainly by the time of colonial settlement on our east coast. There are contemporary references to their use in formal circumstances -- such as the surrender of New Sweden's forts to the Dutch, in 1655 or whenever. And, of course, during our late unpleasantness with George III and his team. For example, a famous painting of the "Spirit of '76" includes the (wounded?) boy musicians on fife & drum. They are used at Ft. Ticonderoga, and I believe at Colonial Williamsburg, in military "living history" presentations, if not reenactments.

    In Virginia, one may still purchase a fife and drum license plate. But not, I believe, a tin whistle one.

    Cool instrument, though. I agree that the stamp looks like some sort of government-issue mark.
  • Ian Bell

    I wondered if a whistle like this might have been issued or sold at a PX type operation as recreational instrument. It may not be as old as I think.
  • razyn

    The design looks like it was lifted from U.S. coins that were introduced in 1807, and ran for 29 years. It lacks the shield or "sandwich board" on the eagle's breast, but it's the same heraldic idea. That design was by John Reich.

  • razyn

    One like yours was discussed three years ago on the "Chiff and Fipple" forum:

    http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55104

    There is at least a hint, in one of the posts, that it was from the Civil War era. The eBay listing cited toward the end of the thread expired long ago, and they didn't bother to lift the illustration from the seller's ad and post it.

    Oh, and here was another:

    http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4489
  • Joel Hooks

    While I really don't know squat about them, I did do a bit of looking into fifes ( I have a Ron Peeler Firth and Pond with "historical finger holes). I think that the different sized finger-holes might give an indication just how old it might not be.
  • Ian Bell

    Razyn - Thanks for finding that link on the whistle site. They're difinitely talking about the same make of instrument.
  • Elaine Masciale

    what a great whistle! You have NO idea how excited I am! Unfortunately, I have no idea about this one. As I have researched tin whistles in the antebellum period/Civil War, I come up with nothing. Doesn't mean they didn't exist, just means I can't find anything. Clark certainly was producing whistles by then, but this isn't a Clarke. I can find a few period references to flagolets, but nothing on tin whistles.

    Whistles are definitely not fifes, no matter how you spell it. Since I started out on flute, I can assure you they are nothing alike except for being shrill.

    I have wondered if the lack of information is because the whistle may have been considered a children's toy.

    Trust me, I would love more evidence! I feel bad enough playing in a band since they were predominantly male (yes, I know about the Hutchinsons, but we don't portray them) and on top of it playing an instrument that wasn't part of a normal band.....
  • Ian Bell

    I'm glad you like it Elaine. It's quite heavy - relative to say a Clark and plays quite nicely. Just in case anyone wondered the reason the top hole looks funny is that I've put a bit of scotch tape over it to that note into tune just a little. (A minor concession to 20th century ears - mine) I'm playing it today. We're in the middle of our Marine Heritage Festival Education Day. 300 school kids - eeek!
  • razyn

    In case anybody is following this thread but hasn't looked at the second picture (detail of the eagle and the pitch mark), be sure to click on "Next," above and to the right of Ian's photo.

    I'm wondering if it's not pewter, rather than tin -- because I don't see any rust, even where it's dented, and you said it's heavy. Old pewter might give you other lead issues. The lead fipple plug can be lacquered or otherwise masked -- to keep the lead in the instrument, and out of you -- if you want to play it with any regularity.
  • Bryant Henderson

    I just stumbled across this four-year-old thread in the process of researching the issue of whether the tin whistle would have been played by Civil War soldiers in camp, etc. First, I would ditto Elaine Masciale's comments. I play tin whistle in a CW string band, but I can't play a transverse instrument like a fife or flute. I'm vitally interested to find some scholarly archival evidence on this.

    I'll offer several points to add here. By all means, I'm interested in any additional info from anyone, especially if it contradicts or clarifies what little I have been able to find. One, the tin whistle, also popularly referred to as the penny whistle, is not made of tin. It was rolled sheet metal -- I suppose that would be iron, as steel was still quite expensive -- covered/plated with tin to prevent rusting. There also seems to be no real evidence that it sold for a penny. Perhaps "penny" is more a reference to its being inexpensive.

    I've found no evidence to its being used in place of the fife in military field music. The whistle, unlike the loud, shrill fife, just doesn't have the volume for that job. So, while the two are similar in appearance, there is a great difference in volume. The tin whistle, if indeed present, would have been a welcome sound around a campfire or inside, but not loud enough for field use, particularly in the din of battle. The converse would apply to the fife.

    I do know that fifes were predominantly pitched in C or B flat, before B flat became the "standard/default" key for military fifes. I do not know just when that evolution came about. So, that this whistle is in the key of C is interesting. Was its heavier weight perhaps an attempt to create a louder whistle that could suffice for the volume of the fife? Is the patriotic design on the whistle of official military use, or was it just for general patriotic sentiment, to appear to be military (perhaps for a boy's toy)?

    A Civil War flute and fife musician whose opinion I would give great to expressed to me this weekend that metal flageolets and flutes would not have been present during the Civil War. He also remarked that he has never found visual appearance of what we would call a tin whistle in a Civil War era photo or drawing, nor has he found any written evidence of the instrument in diaries, letters, etc. He is a very accomplished tin whistle player, but he doesn't use the instrument in his CW music.
    Soooo, this particular find, as in so many historical cases, creates more questions than it answers. It can't yet be considered an exception that disproves the rule. There is much more research to do.

    BTW, the question as to the presence of the harmonica is in more or less the same state.

     

     

  • Wes Merchant

    Howe in his "School for the Flageolet", 1846 shows fingerings for the "English flageolet, which I had understood to be the tin whistle.

  • Bryant Henderson

    Just found complete copy of "Howe's" online. It refers to the English flageolet as having a hole for the small finger and another "behind" for the thumb. It refers to the French flageolet as having two holes "behind" for the thumbs. Neither would be the six-holes-all-on-the-front configuration with which we're familiar today. That didn't take me in the direction that I hoped it would. "We're drifting too far from the shore."