Whatever happened to the Jig? - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-29T07:13:14Zhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/whatever-happened-to-the-jig?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A105837&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThe same sort of shift happen…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-29:2477478:Comment:1058372014-01-29T10:57:27.218ZWes Merchanthttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/WesMerchant
The same sort of shift happened in the18th and early 19th centuries to the 3/2 hornpipe. These kind of time signatures do seem to have held over in Hymnals.
The same sort of shift happened in the18th and early 19th centuries to the 3/2 hornpipe. These kind of time signatures do seem to have held over in Hymnals. Perhaps worth mentioning rega…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-29:2477478:Comment:1056862014-01-29T03:48:16.886ZAl Smitleyhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/AlSmitley
<p>Perhaps worth mentioning regarding the difference in the ratio in songs as compared to the ratio in instrumentals (in my admittedly limited sample) is that most all the instrumentals, I presume, were composed at the time and for publication, whereas the melodies for songs, at least those used for verses in song books and song sheets were already-established melodies, presumably remaining familiar to people of the period, but which may have been composed at earlier times by those such as…</p>
<p>Perhaps worth mentioning regarding the difference in the ratio in songs as compared to the ratio in instrumentals (in my admittedly limited sample) is that most all the instrumentals, I presume, were composed at the time and for publication, whereas the melodies for songs, at least those used for verses in song books and song sheets were already-established melodies, presumably remaining familiar to people of the period, but which may have been composed at earlier times by those such as Robert Burns and others, though some such as "Oh! Susanna" were "parodied" within the same year that the original was published. I guess what I'm saying is generally that the melodies for songs probably tended to predate the melodies for instrumentals.</p> Bob - yes! I find that if I'm…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-29:2477478:Comment:1055362014-01-29T02:38:18.534ZMark Weemshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/MarkKellyWeems
<p>Bob - yes! I find that if I'm not concentrating hard on a 6/8 time, I can easily slip into some more squared off version.</p>
<p>Interesting data, Al. It looks like as far as songs go, they were pretty much just as popular as the reels. While as instrumentals and in the actual banjo books, they take a back seat. So maybe we cannot say that they fell out of fashion exactly. It could also be that most banjo players, in the folk tradition at least, were more comfortable, or simply more drawn…</p>
<p>Bob - yes! I find that if I'm not concentrating hard on a 6/8 time, I can easily slip into some more squared off version.</p>
<p>Interesting data, Al. It looks like as far as songs go, they were pretty much just as popular as the reels. While as instrumentals and in the actual banjo books, they take a back seat. So maybe we cannot say that they fell out of fashion exactly. It could also be that most banjo players, in the folk tradition at least, were more comfortable, or simply more drawn to, playing simple forms of rhythmic accompaniment to the fiddle tunes and this contributed over time to their being reduced to such a small roll. I mean, I can take a complete beginner banjo student and have them playing the reel Old Jonny Boker in a month or two. But to get them up to the point where they can play the jig Haste To the Wedding for instance, would require a much more advanced skill set that many might not have had the time or the inclination for. Certainly, as you and Tim point out, they continued in popularity in the fiddle music of the period.</p> I used to play all kinds of o…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-29:2477478:Comment:1057622014-01-29T02:23:58.365ZBell Banjoshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TerryBell
<p>I used to play all kinds of old time music at parties and bars. It seemed everyone could dance or make up a dance to our reels, hornpipes, waltzes etc... but there were only about 6 gals in the whole thumb area of Michigan who could do a jig. When folks would TRY to jig, they'd look like a drunken marionette or something.</p>
<p>I used to play all kinds of old time music at parties and bars. It seemed everyone could dance or make up a dance to our reels, hornpipes, waltzes etc... but there were only about 6 gals in the whole thumb area of Michigan who could do a jig. When folks would TRY to jig, they'd look like a drunken marionette or something.</p> I've been enjoying lots of th…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-29:2477478:Comment:1057612014-01-29T01:21:20.010ZTim Twisshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>I've been enjoying lots of them in the Kerr's book. There are many, the B sections never get too twisty. Converse seems to be the guy to pull them out, and has some in the "Old Cremona Songster" if anybody has checked that out.....very cool, but certainly different from the other books.</p>
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<p>It is such an old dance form....dating way back. I'll be watching for more of your music you are digging out from this time Mark.</p>
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<p>I've been enjoying lots of them in the Kerr's book. There are many, the B sections never get too twisty. Converse seems to be the guy to pull them out, and has some in the "Old Cremona Songster" if anybody has checked that out.....very cool, but certainly different from the other books.</p>
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<p>It is such an old dance form....dating way back. I'll be watching for more of your music you are digging out from this time Mark.</p>
<p></p> I'll expand on that a bit, to…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-29:2477478:Comment:1056262014-01-29T01:15:37.833ZAl Smitleyhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/AlSmitley
<p>I'll expand on that a bit, to include 58 instrumental pieces with topical titles between 1820-1861.....</p>
<p> Songs(137) Instrumentals(58) Total(195)</p>
<p>2/4 43 (31%) 32 (55%) 75 (38%)</p>
<p>4/4 41 (30%) 9 (16%) 50 (26%)</p>
<p>6/8 38 (28%) 10 (17%) 48 (25%)</p>
<p>3/4 12 ( 9%) 4 ( 7%) 16 ( 8%)</p>
<p>3/8 1 ( 1%) …</p>
<p>I'll expand on that a bit, to include 58 instrumental pieces with topical titles between 1820-1861.....</p>
<p> Songs(137) Instrumentals(58) Total(195)</p>
<p>2/4 43 (31%) 32 (55%) 75 (38%)</p>
<p>4/4 41 (30%) 9 (16%) 50 (26%)</p>
<p>6/8 38 (28%) 10 (17%) 48 (25%)</p>
<p>3/4 12 ( 9%) 4 ( 7%) 16 ( 8%)</p>
<p>3/8 1 ( 1%) 3 ( 5%) 4 ( 2%)</p>
<p>9/8 2 ( 1%) 0 2 ( 1%)</p> I've been collecting topical…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-29:2477478:Comment:1055352014-01-29T00:23:13.882ZAl Smitleyhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/AlSmitley
<p>I've been collecting topical songs from 1820-1861, some of which were published in sheet music (and thus, for the most part, had original melodies), some published in various genres of songbooks, and others as songsheets. In the latter two the verses were usually to be sung to specific melodies, supposedly familiar to most of that period.</p>
<p>For what it may be worth, of 137 <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">different</span></strong> melodies used, here is the…</p>
<p>I've been collecting topical songs from 1820-1861, some of which were published in sheet music (and thus, for the most part, had original melodies), some published in various genres of songbooks, and others as songsheets. In the latter two the verses were usually to be sung to specific melodies, supposedly familiar to most of that period.</p>
<p>For what it may be worth, of 137 <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">different</span></strong> melodies used, here is the breakdown:</p>
<p>2/4 - 43 (31%)</p>
<p>4/4 - 41 (30%)</p>
<p>6/8 - 38 (28%)</p>
<p>3/4 - 12 ( 9%)</p>
<p>9/8 - 2 ( 1%)</p>
<p>3/8 - 1 ( 1%)</p>
<p>Perhaps it is significant that most of the publishing companies were in the north east(?)</p>
<p></p> Well, more generally, there's…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-28:2477478:Comment:1056202014-01-28T23:42:56.210ZBob DeVellishttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/BobDeVellis
<p>Well, more generally, there's a lot of mutation from jig to march. Double-jigs (BUM-da-da Bum-da-da) despite being based on triple-time, group those three-note phrases in such a way that they can pretty easily be rendered in "square" time, either 2/4 or 4/4 and a number of Irish jigs seem to have gone down that road. I wonder (and I certainly don't know) if that may be why a lot of jig melodies seemed to vanish over time. More specifically, I wonder if the basic melodies may have been…</p>
<p>Well, more generally, there's a lot of mutation from jig to march. Double-jigs (BUM-da-da Bum-da-da) despite being based on triple-time, group those three-note phrases in such a way that they can pretty easily be rendered in "square" time, either 2/4 or 4/4 and a number of Irish jigs seem to have gone down that road. I wonder (and I certainly don't know) if that may be why a lot of jig melodies seemed to vanish over time. More specifically, I wonder if the basic melodies may have been re-cast in a "square" meter, thus losing their identity as jigs. Does that fit at all with your observations, or are you describing a different process that involved the melodies being lost in any form? If the latter, than obviously my speculation wouldn't fit the observed pattern.</p> I took a course in collage (l…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-28:2477478:Comment:1056172014-01-28T23:31:41.686ZWes Merchanthttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/WesMerchant
<p>I took a course in collage (last century) called History of Jazz. One of the topics was the African influence on European music. I remember the instructor saying that African polyrhythms accounted for the shift and the larger African population in the South accounted for the difference in Northern and Southern stylistic differences. I wish I could remember more, or had saved some of the notes.</p>
<p>I took a course in collage (last century) called History of Jazz. One of the topics was the African influence on European music. I remember the instructor saying that African polyrhythms accounted for the shift and the larger African population in the South accounted for the difference in Northern and Southern stylistic differences. I wish I could remember more, or had saved some of the notes.</p> Good point, I'll take a look.…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-01-28:2477478:Comment:1055322014-01-28T22:52:02.835ZMark Weemshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/MarkKellyWeems
<p>Good point, I'll take a look. I've also found out that in the colonial period Reels were group dances whereas the Jigs were solo or duo dances. But John Diamond and Master Juba were known to dance to actual jigs, however, there are none in Sweeny's early repertoire, so maybe it was to fiddle?</p>
<p>Good point, I'll take a look. I've also found out that in the colonial period Reels were group dances whereas the Jigs were solo or duo dances. But John Diamond and Master Juba were known to dance to actual jigs, however, there are none in Sweeny's early repertoire, so maybe it was to fiddle?</p>