Print sources and playing by ear - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-28T23:53:37Zhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/print-sources-and-playing-by-ear?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A81022&feed=yes&xn_auth=noActually, we do know... Peop…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-03:2477478:Comment:815462013-02-03T03:43:42.817ZJoel Hookshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Actually, we do know... People did use these books and wrote about them. They collected and traded manuscript sheet music. There is even hand written sheet music (the very ones that Baur wrote about) from Frank Converse still in extant. Written in his very hand! I keep saying it, this really was a small world and still is.</p>
<p>Fact is, these books were, and still are, used.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Dan'l said:…</cite></p>
<p>Actually, we do know... People did use these books and wrote about them. They collected and traded manuscript sheet music. There is even hand written sheet music (the very ones that Baur wrote about) from Frank Converse still in extant. Written in his very hand! I keep saying it, this really was a small world and still is.</p>
<p>Fact is, these books were, and still are, used.<br/> <br/> <cite>Dan'l said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/print-sources-and-playing-by-ear?xg_source=activity&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A81094&page=3#2477478Comment81444"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>One thing to come out of this thread: the entire resource of banjo tutor material is not the same thing as the entire resource of Minstrel Banjo.</p>
<p>- Dan'l (elaborations beyond the primary topic below)</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>We have playbills and accounts indicating that there was so much more music that never ended up in the banjo tutors. To whit surviving period piano, fiddle and voice scores. Stephen Foster did not publish a banjo tutor, for instance.</p>
<p>There is a tendency to imply "Minstrel Banjo" to mean what we know of minstrel banjo from the banjo tutors, but again there's no evidence that the tutors were in wide geographical distribution or use. We know they were published, as were reams and reams of forgettable sheet music published with optimism but ending up as bird cage liners. Today we would call it vanity press, as there was no market research. Selling by subcription was the only sure thing.</p>
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</blockquote> Joel--I'm planning to go to A…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-02:2477478:Comment:813102013-02-02T19:37:44.093ZRob Morrisonhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobertRMorrison
<p>Joel--I'm planning to go to ABG. It's a highpoint of my music year, especially since they just announced the demise of the Fiddler's Grove festival, in Union Grove, NC. I also plan to go to Mark Weem's new event in Appamatox. Re: the origins of banjo mania. As far as the hardware goes, I give most credit to the mass markerters of the tubs beginning in the 1860's. They sold way more banjos than anyone else and they actually made most of the banjos for many of the stars of the era such as…</p>
<p>Joel--I'm planning to go to ABG. It's a highpoint of my music year, especially since they just announced the demise of the Fiddler's Grove festival, in Union Grove, NC. I also plan to go to Mark Weem's new event in Appamatox. Re: the origins of banjo mania. As far as the hardware goes, I give most credit to the mass markerters of the tubs beginning in the 1860's. They sold way more banjos than anyone else and they actually made most of the banjos for many of the stars of the era such as Converse or the many Dobson's and their offspring. The software is a much murkier situation due to the paucity of written history. However, believe me, these traditions have been mined by musicologists and academicians, and although based on oral accounts using anthropological techniques, these traditions do have their own history, related to, but not necessarily dominated by the minstrel era. It's all good.</p> I think that is the point.
An…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-02:2477478:Comment:810242013-02-02T03:33:34.234ZJoel Hookshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>I think that is the point.</p>
<p>And I would like to give credit where credit is due. The banjo as we know it exists because of the likes of Sweeney, the Buckleys, Converse, Baur, Emmet, the Dobsons, Stewart, Eph Horn, and so forth.</p>
<p>Especially Converse and Bauer-- they were the recorders of that era. A sort of a "Lomax."</p>
<p>When they, or <em>any </em>banjoist stepped out on stage, folks wanted to be <em>them.</em></p>
<p>I always come back to FBC, because he came in early on.…</p>
<p>I think that is the point.</p>
<p>And I would like to give credit where credit is due. The banjo as we know it exists because of the likes of Sweeney, the Buckleys, Converse, Baur, Emmet, the Dobsons, Stewart, Eph Horn, and so forth.</p>
<p>Especially Converse and Bauer-- they were the recorders of that era. A sort of a "Lomax."</p>
<p>When they, or <em>any </em>banjoist stepped out on stage, folks wanted to be <em>them.</em></p>
<p>I always come back to FBC, because he came in early on. He was there when the banjo went from "simple accompaniment" and jigs in the early 50s- to his ABM.</p>
<p>I appreciate all the efforts that folks are making on the subject of pre banjo. It is very important and wonderful. But our banjo-- the banjo that we love-- was made that way because of folks like FBC, Horace Weston, S. S. Stewart, E. M. Hall, Tho. Armstrong, Jimmy Clarke, (egads.. even the Dobson family in all their sue happy-- arrested for wife abandonment--partnership double crossing--bliss) and on and on.</p>
<p>It was because of the work of those guys that folks in the "parlor" wanted to play the banjo.</p>
<p>Is it possible that not much was written of the banjo before the mid 1850s for a reason?</p>
<p>I read the same story over and over again... "the first time I heard a banjo was in the hands of (name a early corker)... Banjos were hard to come by so we made one from a flour sieve with a pine neck..."</p>
<p>The banjo went from "hard to come by" to every hock shop and music store having them for sell by the 60s.</p>
<p>Rare-to-common in 15 years (or perhaps five years?) at the exact same time that minstrelsy really took off.</p>
<p>There was Billy Whitlock, as Dan'l pointed out, in '42. Some sheet music published with the banjo on the cover, but for the piano. Many puzzled articles in newspapers.</p>
<p>There was Pic Butler (no evidence besides that heavily opinionated work "Blacking Up" by Toll that he was black) who was famous-- oh yea! that's right, Converse leaned how to use a thimble from him. There was Tom Briggs'-- Oh that's right, Converse wrote "his" book.</p>
<p>All these guys knew each other.</p>
<p>Then the banjo was everywhere.</p>
<p>As for "dead styles," one of Converse's students was a member of the ABF. That ain't that long ago. Folks still living knew folks that were friends with a banjoist that was taught to play by the Frank Converse.</p>
<p>That world was small, still is. Thanks to this sort of networking we are starting to put together the pieces. And undo the untruths that have been spread for so long.</p>
<p>Rob, I have learned to never say never. I hope you are going to the ABG this year because it is always a treat to see you.</p> Ok John, so then generally sp…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-02:2477478:Comment:811202013-02-02T02:00:01.199ZStrumeliahttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<p>Ok John, so then generally speaking, the term 'minstrel music' back in the early 1800s wasn't <em>defined as</em> music played by performers for a stage show, the way the term is sometimes defined today? Weren't a lot of these minstrel songs and tunes also played in the course of everyday activities?...work songs, dance tunes, gospel/religious, sentimental, popular, funny, and romance songs... sung and probably played by reg'lar folk? Most 'popular' music is by its very nature infectious…</p>
<p>Ok John, so then generally speaking, the term 'minstrel music' back in the early 1800s wasn't <em>defined as</em> music played by performers for a stage show, the way the term is sometimes defined today? Weren't a lot of these minstrel songs and tunes also played in the course of everyday activities?...work songs, dance tunes, gospel/religious, sentimental, popular, funny, and romance songs... sung and probably played by reg'lar folk? Most 'popular' music is by its very nature infectious and gets people humming, singing and dancing to it.</p> Minstrelsy was a tongue in ch…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-01:2477478:Comment:811192013-02-01T22:43:16.823ZJohn Mascialehttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnMasciale
<p>Minstrelsy was a tongue in cheek play on the use of minstrel, both the medieval meaning, and for the 4 part harmony groups that were popular at the time, such as the Tyrolese Minstrels. </p>
<p>Much of the music was refered to as plantation music, or other titles that were more derogatory. The point of reference was on the style and supposed source of the music, rather than being on who performed it.</p>
<p>Minstrelsy was a tongue in cheek play on the use of minstrel, both the medieval meaning, and for the 4 part harmony groups that were popular at the time, such as the Tyrolese Minstrels. </p>
<p>Much of the music was refered to as plantation music, or other titles that were more derogatory. The point of reference was on the style and supposed source of the music, rather than being on who performed it.</p> One question might be- We kn…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-01:2477478:Comment:810232013-02-01T22:15:31.442ZStrumeliahttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<p>One question might be- We know what the term 'minstrel music' means to us today when we talk about American music, but... what did the term 'minstrel music' mean to people back in the 1800's when they first began using it? Did a minstrel only mean a stage performer? Or did a 'minstrel' mean more like the older definitions of the word?:…</p>
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<p>One question might be- We know what the term 'minstrel music' means to us today when we talk about American music, but... what did the term 'minstrel music' mean to people back in the 1800's when they first began using it? Did a minstrel only mean a stage performer? Or did a 'minstrel' mean more like the older definitions of the word?:</p>
<table border="0" cellspacing="4" width="100%">
<tbody><tr class="tr3" valign="top"><td class="td3n1" align="right" width="1%"><span id="hotword"><span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">1.</span></span></td>
<td class="td3n2"><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword">a</span> <span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">medieval</span> <span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">wandering</span> <span id="hotword">musician</span> <span id="hotword">who</span> <span id="hotword">performed</span> <span id="hotword">songs</span> <span id="hotword">or</span> <span id="hotword">recited</span> <span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">poetry</span> <span id="hotword">with</span> <span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">instrumental</span> <span id="hotword">accompaniment</span></span></td>
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<tr class="tr3" valign="top"><td class="td3n1" align="right" width="1%"><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword">3.</span></span></td>
<td class="td3n2"><i><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword">archaic</span></span></i> <span id="hotword">,</span> <i><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword">poetic</span></span></i> <i><span id="hotword"><span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">or</span></span></i> <span id="hotword"> <span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">any</span> <span id="hotword">poet,</span> <span style="color: #0055bb; cursor: pointer;" id="hotword">musician,</span> <span id="hotword">or</span> <span style="color: #333333; cursor: default;" id="hotword">singer</span></span></td>
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Once you br…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-01:2477478:Comment:811162013-02-01T21:30:57.278ZStrumeliahttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<p><br></br> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/print-sources-and-playing-by-ear?xg_source=activity&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A81094&page=2#2477478Comment81293"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Once you bring in folk styles, I'm out. This board's focus (at least I thought) is on popular banjo as played by or influenced by the stage.</p>
<p>There are two sections on the banjo hangout where one can discuss regional folk styles of…</p>
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<p><br/> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/print-sources-and-playing-by-ear?xg_source=activity&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A81094&page=2#2477478Comment81293"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Once you bring in folk styles, I'm out. This board's focus (at least I thought) is on popular banjo as played by or influenced by the stage.</p>
<p>There are two sections on the banjo hangout where one can discuss regional folk styles of the 20th century.</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p id="xg_sitedesc" class="xj_site_desc">"<strong>For enthusiasts of early banjo-</strong></p>
<div class="xg_module xg_module_network_description"><div class="xg_module_body"><p style="font-size: 1.1em;">A resource and gathering site for people interested in playing and constructing early banjos, <em><strong>and</strong></em> the history of minstrel music in America."</p>
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</div> This all comes down to why we…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-01:2477478:Comment:812242013-02-01T18:31:56.749ZJohn Mascialehttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnMasciale
<p>This all comes down to why we are playing. Are we playing for ourselves, or are we playing to recreate a style and sound from the past. I have done both on my minstrel banjos. When I hook a pickup to my bridge so that I can play with electronic instruments, then all ties to the past are gone.</p>
<p>When I am playing as a reenactor, I want to look and sound like someone might have in the past. As a musician (at least some people have been kind enough to call me that) I have to admit that…</p>
<p>This all comes down to why we are playing. Are we playing for ourselves, or are we playing to recreate a style and sound from the past. I have done both on my minstrel banjos. When I hook a pickup to my bridge so that I can play with electronic instruments, then all ties to the past are gone.</p>
<p>When I am playing as a reenactor, I want to look and sound like someone might have in the past. As a musician (at least some people have been kind enough to call me that) I have to admit that I am influenced by all of the music that I have heard, and it is very easy for modernisms to creep in to what I am playing. Sometimes I'm not even aware of it until someone points that out to me. Staying close to the written music is a discipline that really helps in keeping to the original sound of music played on these instruments. </p>
<p>Did people play in styles other than what we have as scored banjo music? Yes. Converse mentions several people he had heard who played in different styles. Do we know what those styles were? Not really. We can guess, and make educated guesses, but that does not ensure that we are right.</p> I love learning about early f…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-01:2477478:Comment:812232013-02-01T15:18:49.896ZJoel Hookshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>I love learning about early folk banjo and what helped shaped the banjo that ultimately ended up in the hands of stage performers.</p>
<p> Or was it the banjo in the hands of stage performers that helped shape folk styles of the 20<sup>th</sup> century?</p>
<p> Or is it folk styles of the 20<sup>th</sup> century that helped shape our interpretation of what was played in popular theater in the mid 19<sup>th</sup> century?</p>
<p>Or is it the uncertain pedigree of that 20<sup>th</sup> century…</p>
<p>I love learning about early folk banjo and what helped shaped the banjo that ultimately ended up in the hands of stage performers.</p>
<p> Or was it the banjo in the hands of stage performers that helped shape folk styles of the 20<sup>th</sup> century?</p>
<p> Or is it folk styles of the 20<sup>th</sup> century that helped shape our interpretation of what was played in popular theater in the mid 19<sup>th</sup> century?</p>
<p>Or is it the uncertain pedigree of that 20<sup>th</sup> century folk method of playing a popular instrument that discredits sheet music in banjo method books?</p> "FOR ENTHUSIASTS OF EARLY BAN…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-02-01:2477478:Comment:811132013-02-01T14:43:20.002ZMark Weemshttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/MarkKellyWeems
<p><strong>"FOR ENTHUSIASTS OF EARLY BANJO"</strong> is written right under that picture. Stage minstrel banjo style was not born in a vacuum in the year 1855. </p>
<p><strong>"FOR ENTHUSIASTS OF EARLY BANJO"</strong> is written right under that picture. Stage minstrel banjo style was not born in a vacuum in the year 1855. </p>