Now for my first "stupid" question. - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-28T17:31:43Zhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/now-for-my-first-stupid-question?x=1&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A116956&feed=yes&xn_auth=noSimply look at compendiums of…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1168042014-08-06T16:51:21.277ZJohn Mascialehttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnMasciale
<p>Simply look at compendiums of music, such as Elias Howe's Musician's Companion from 1850. In it you will find a variety of music including Irish and Scottish music. There is music from Europe, "Ethiopian" music, popular music, classical music, etc. One thing that Elaine's and my research is showing is that here in America, what was called "Scottish" music and "Irish" music is actually more of an American impression of these genres rather than necessarily being music from those countries. …</p>
<p>Simply look at compendiums of music, such as Elias Howe's Musician's Companion from 1850. In it you will find a variety of music including Irish and Scottish music. There is music from Europe, "Ethiopian" music, popular music, classical music, etc. One thing that Elaine's and my research is showing is that here in America, what was called "Scottish" music and "Irish" music is actually more of an American impression of these genres rather than necessarily being music from those countries. As a reference:</p>
<p></p>
<p><a href="http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Musician" target="_blank">http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Musician</a>'s_Companion_(Howe,_Elias)</p>
<p></p> Like it or not, the majority…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1166902014-08-06T16:05:32.725ZStrumeliahttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<blockquote><p>Like it or not, the majority of amateur banjo players in the antebellum period were likely white, urban, and middle-class.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>How can you make such a sweeping definitive statement, John? From 1781-1860 ? With all due respect, I must admit I find it a bit alarming.</p>
<blockquote><p>Like it or not, the majority of amateur banjo players in the antebellum period were likely white, urban, and middle-class.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>How can you make such a sweeping definitive statement, John? From 1781-1860 ? With all due respect, I must admit I find it a bit alarming.</p> If you're trying (to) bridge…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1169742014-08-06T15:49:59.868ZStrumeliahttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<blockquote><p> If you're trying (to) bridge the early 19th century and the rise of the banjo before the Civil War to old-time music, I'll hold my breath until evidence supporting this presents itself. The way I see it, prior to the minstrel show and aside from a few isolated incidents, the banjo was played by slaves and free blacks.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>John, when I wrote: <em>"Then, as now, there were many people playing the banjo, fiddle, and other 'folk' instruments during that time period…</em></p>
<blockquote><p> If you're trying (to) bridge the early 19th century and the rise of the banjo before the Civil War to old-time music, I'll hold my breath until evidence supporting this presents itself. The way I see it, prior to the minstrel show and aside from a few isolated incidents, the banjo was played by slaves and free blacks.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>John, when I wrote: <em>"Then, as now, there were many people playing the banjo, fiddle, and other 'folk' instruments during that time period who were not professionals, composers, or performers...nor even educated and literate. Just working people making home made music to brighten their daily lives, dance or sing to. We should keep in mind that not 'everyone' was reading/learning music from books and sheet music, or attending stage shows.", </em> ...I wasn't referring only to white people. I meant all common people who played music in their daily lives while at work or at play.... non-professionals/non-performers/non-composer-publishers ...who may have been poor, slaves, free, or working class... either black, white or from other cultures... <em>people who were playing music. </em></p>
<p></p>
<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><blockquote><p>I do assume this, I just don't believe that they were playing Irish or "old-time" music on (banjos) back in the 1850s.</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I don't see that anyone is saying they were. Let's remember that 'old-time music' is usually defined as music from the early <em>stringband commercial recordings on 78's</em> and onward. Before that, music played by common folk was simply 'folk music', and what we might label today as 'traditional' music.</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.oldtimemusic.com/otdef.html" target="_blank">http://www.oldtimemusic.com/otdef.html</a></p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://folkmusic.about.com/od/folkmusic101/p/OldTimeMusic.htm" target="_blank">http://folkmusic.about.com/od/folkmusic101/p/OldTimeMusic.htm</a></p>
<p></p>
<p>If there were Irish tunes published in the early banjo tutor books, then we must assume 'people' were playing them on banjos at that time, right? Would people have bought the tutor books and then <em>not</em> played the Irish tunes in them?</p>
</div>
</div> We don't know that, though. …tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1168812014-08-06T15:42:22.556ZJohn Cohenhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>We don't know that, though. It's possible they were handwriting these tunes out and sharing them that way. One thing I've noticed since joining this community is that we impose a lot of our ideas of traditional music born out of the 1960s folk revival onto the early banjo. I think we underestimate the musicians back then. There was so much sheet music printed in the 19th century. Some of it even appears in books like ladies' magazines, and so many of these are for piano. Reading music…</p>
<p>We don't know that, though. It's possible they were handwriting these tunes out and sharing them that way. One thing I've noticed since joining this community is that we impose a lot of our ideas of traditional music born out of the 1960s folk revival onto the early banjo. I think we underestimate the musicians back then. There was so much sheet music printed in the 19th century. Some of it even appears in books like ladies' magazines, and so many of these are for piano. Reading music wasn't viewed in a negative light like it is today by many folk musicians. We have to keep in mind that learning to read music is really easy. Young kids around the country do it today; there is no reason people couldn't learn to read music back then. Without recordings or access to banjoists (as you said, there weren't many of them prior to 1860), learning to play the banjo by ear would have been a challenge, when there were many different tutors available to learn to read music. I don't think it's correct, without supporting evidence, to assume that people learned piano music and tunes by ear, just because that's what traditional musicians do today. And speaking of tradition, how in any way was minstrelsy a tradition? Even in the earliest days, this was popular music performed on the stage- there's nothing traditional about that. Like it or not, the majority of amateur banjo players in the antebellum period were likely white, urban, and middle-class. Even what we now called Irish Traditional music had a popular edge to it back then, as well as a number of large, published volumes of tunes. Irish music is undoubtedly a tradition in the modern era.</p>
<p> As you said, before 1860 (essentially before Buckbee) there weren't very many banjos floating around, and at the same time there were hundreds of minstrel troupes. I don't think there were banjo-playing folk musicians cranking out Celtic tunes in barns during this time period.</p> There were no real banjo tuto…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1166872014-08-06T15:19:33.472ZRob Morrisonhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobertRMorrison
<p>There were no real banjo tutors for the first 25 years or so of minstrelsy, so whatever people were playing, they didn't get it out of tutors. Also, what I consider to be real minstrel tunes, as opposed to the much more complicated composed tunes played in guitar style, appeared in the first 25 or 30 years of minstrelsy. Before 1860 most banjos were hand crafted in small quantities. After 1860 and the industrial revolution, banjos were cranked out by the tens of thousands with inexpensive…</p>
<p>There were no real banjo tutors for the first 25 years or so of minstrelsy, so whatever people were playing, they didn't get it out of tutors. Also, what I consider to be real minstrel tunes, as opposed to the much more complicated composed tunes played in guitar style, appeared in the first 25 or 30 years of minstrelsy. Before 1860 most banjos were hand crafted in small quantities. After 1860 and the industrial revolution, banjos were cranked out by the tens of thousands with inexpensive interchangeable parts. There were certainly not tens of thousands of professional banjo players running around. Early minstrelsy was taught from musician to musician, mostly by ear. Sure, Dan Emmett and some others were undoubtedly musically literate, but the early tunes are easy to learn by ear and invite improvisation. Popular tunes like those of Steven Foster were probably mostly learned by ear, because they were written for piano. I play most Steven Foster by ear myself. Yes, there are some great tunes in the tutors you probably shouldn't mess with much, but that's not true of most of the early minstrel tunes, many of which do have African, Irish, Scottish, and English antecedents. To summarize, the first generation of minstrelsy and white folks playing the banjo was nothing if not an oral tradition. </p> Ian, I mentioned in my first…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1169732014-08-06T15:04:39.258ZJohn Cohenhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>Ian, I mentioned in my first post that there are some Celtic tunes re-purposed for use in minstrelsy. As for Bully for You, Converse published multiple Irish tunes, but first off this was later than the time frame I specified, and secondly these tunes were part of popular music and were published for performance or for the parlor. I don't think you would have found an someone with an early banjo playing Irish tunes with a fiddler in a barn somewhere, for example. Also, looking at the…</p>
<p>Ian, I mentioned in my first post that there are some Celtic tunes re-purposed for use in minstrelsy. As for Bully for You, Converse published multiple Irish tunes, but first off this was later than the time frame I specified, and secondly these tunes were part of popular music and were published for performance or for the parlor. I don't think you would have found an someone with an early banjo playing Irish tunes with a fiddler in a barn somewhere, for example. Also, looking at the tutors and noting that some tunes have Irish origins (or are actually Irish tunes) does not mean that people played Irish music on the banjo back then. Keep in mind that the minstrels publishing the tutors were largely Irishmen and Englishmen, so it's makes sense that they would raw upon their past experience (what they knew).</p> If you look at the old books…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1168782014-08-06T14:38:03.794ZIan Bellhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/IanBell
<p>If you look at the old books you'll see they were absolutely playing Scottish & Irish music on them in the 1850s. In the Briggs book alone we have - Fisher's Hornpipe, Monymusk, and Alabama Joe - which is actually the Cornish hymn "Trelawney. Another that turns up in lots of books is "Bully for You" which is another name for the jig called "The Bottle of Brandy".</p>
<p>If you look at the old books you'll see they were absolutely playing Scottish & Irish music on them in the 1850s. In the Briggs book alone we have - Fisher's Hornpipe, Monymusk, and Alabama Joe - which is actually the Cornish hymn "Trelawney. Another that turns up in lots of books is "Bully for You" which is another name for the jig called "The Bottle of Brandy".</p> John. I'll take that as a YES…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1168752014-08-06T14:29:38.732ZHugh Strawnhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/HughStrawn
<p>John. I'll take that as a YES. Discussion over for me now on this issue. thanx.....hugh</p>
<p>John. I'll take that as a YES. Discussion over for me now on this issue. thanx.....hugh</p> John,
I do assume this, I jus…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1168742014-08-06T14:18:52.808ZJohn Cohenhttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>John,</p>
<p>I do assume this, I just don't believe that they were playing Irish or "old-time" music on them back in the 1850s.</p>
<p>John,</p>
<p>I do assume this, I just don't believe that they were playing Irish or "old-time" music on them back in the 1850s.</p> You have to assume that since…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-06:2477478:Comment:1169702014-08-06T14:10:03.599ZJohn Mascialehttps://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnMasciale
<p>You have to assume that since banjos began to be commercially made in the 1840s that the average Joe on the street was buying and playing them from that time forward. If not, then there would not be a commercial demand for the instrument, and the people making them would have gone out of business. That also goes for the instruction manuals on how to play them (1850s). You don't print a book unless there is sufficient demand for that book. There are also a number of "unknown" banjo players…</p>
<p>You have to assume that since banjos began to be commercially made in the 1840s that the average Joe on the street was buying and playing them from that time forward. If not, then there would not be a commercial demand for the instrument, and the people making them would have gone out of business. That also goes for the instruction manuals on how to play them (1850s). You don't print a book unless there is sufficient demand for that book. There are also a number of "unknown" banjo players being photographed with their instruments. I would date most of the photos that I have seen from the 1850s on. </p>