What do you think of this? - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-29T15:20:33Zhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/what-do-you-think-of-this?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A88916&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYes, I put that up not to be…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-05:2477478:Comment:891532013-04-05T12:58:29.729ZTim Twisshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>Yes, I put that up not to be defended ( or otherwise ) .....just observed. It puts many things in context.</p>
<p>Yes, I put that up not to be defended ( or otherwise ) .....just observed. It puts many things in context.</p> John said....
"However, I don…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-05:2477478:Comment:889932013-04-05T10:52:37.197ZAl Smitleyhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/AlSmitley
<p>John said....</p>
<p><strong>"However, I don't see strong evidence to suggest that the majority of racists were Christian."</strong></p>
<p>I should have recognized that this could be a touchy subject. My statement wasn't meant to be an indictment on Christianity. I said that most racists I have known and most American slaveholders undoubtedly considered themselves to be Christians. That is quite different from saying most Christians I have known and most mid-19th C American Christians…</p>
<p>John said....</p>
<p><strong>"However, I don't see strong evidence to suggest that the majority of racists were Christian."</strong></p>
<p>I should have recognized that this could be a touchy subject. My statement wasn't meant to be an indictment on Christianity. I said that most racists I have known and most American slaveholders undoubtedly considered themselves to be Christians. That is quite different from saying most Christians I have known and most mid-19th C American Christians were racists. If I questioned why Christianity became part of the discussion, it was probably because I sensed that a parallel was made between it and morality....and though there may be one, I don't think it takes a Christian (or an adherent to any other religion, for that matter) to live a moral existence, though, because mid-19th C America was inhabited by a large percentage of Christians, I suppose that is the reason the parallel was made. Christians, like any other segment of society, come with all kinds of attitudes and agendas and have interpreted/cited scripture to justify those attitudes. Perhaps they are not considered "true Christians". I don't know. Mid-19th C churches also split over the use of music. As a handed-down family story goes, my G-G-Grandfather could not convince my G-G-Grandmother to join the church because she liked to dance. </p>
<p><strong>John said...</strong></p>
<p><strong>The northern branches of those churches were strongly anti-slavery.</strong></p>
<p>Perhaps I'm being cynical here but, human nature being what it is, I suspect that if the climate/soil, etc., were reversed and cotton flourished in northern instead of southern states, so too would have the attitudes of northern and southern churches.</p>
<p></p> Strictly my opinion- but I do…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-05:2477478:Comment:889922013-04-05T10:38:46.841ZValerie Diaz Leroyhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/ValerieDiazLeroy
Strictly my opinion- but I don't think we need to look any thing to "help to excuse Converse for his statement." Regardless of the time, location, etc, his statements are made out of ignorance. Any day and age, no matter how much we love a person, it's an ugly way to think.<br />
I'm not perfect and I, too, have a lot to learn about people. I often think about lessons I've taught on cultures different from my own hoping I have given an accurate picture to my students.
Strictly my opinion- but I don't think we need to look any thing to "help to excuse Converse for his statement." Regardless of the time, location, etc, his statements are made out of ignorance. Any day and age, no matter how much we love a person, it's an ugly way to think.<br />
I'm not perfect and I, too, have a lot to learn about people. I often think about lessons I've taught on cultures different from my own hoping I have given an accurate picture to my students. Let's talk some stats. At th…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-05:2477478:Comment:889902013-04-05T06:16:26.140ZJohn Mascialehttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnMasciale
<p>Let's talk some stats. At the time of the civil war, 35% of the population were church members. Church attendance on Sunday was approximately 50% of the population. The abolition movement was run by predominantly Christian people. Many ministers were involved in the movement. The splits in the Methodist church and the Baptist church in the 1840s was over slavery. The northern branches of those churches were strongly anti-slavery. It is true that many abolitionists were racists by…</p>
<p>Let's talk some stats. At the time of the civil war, 35% of the population were church members. Church attendance on Sunday was approximately 50% of the population. The abolition movement was run by predominantly Christian people. Many ministers were involved in the movement. The splits in the Methodist church and the Baptist church in the 1840s was over slavery. The northern branches of those churches were strongly anti-slavery. It is true that many abolitionists were racists by today's definitions. However, I don't see strong evidence to suggest that the majority of racists were Christian. </p>
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<p>Some more facts for anyone interested. Both the Methodist church and the Baptist church were on the verge of requesting members to sell all their slaves in the 1790s. What happened to turn that around? There are a number of issues, but one major one was the advent of the cotton gin. Another was that at that point in time church membership was about 5% of the population. Did the Church fail in standing on its principles? Yes. Its a good lesson for today's church. </p> And most Jewish people I know…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-05:2477478:Comment:889872013-04-05T02:59:51.701ZStrumeliahttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<p>And most Jewish people I know are not 'hedging' about the role of Christ...<em> (wtf??)</em></p>
<blockquote><p>Dan'l said: And it's also relevant because the overwhelming majority of U.S. residents at the time considered themselves Christians. Even those that hedged about the role of Christ -- the Deists, Unitarians, Mormons and Jews -- still cited the same old testament and ten commandments.</p>
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<p>And most Jewish people I know are not 'hedging' about the role of Christ...<em> (wtf??)</em></p>
<blockquote><p>Dan'l said: And it's also relevant because the overwhelming majority of U.S. residents at the time considered themselves Christians. Even those that hedged about the role of Christ -- the Deists, Unitarians, Mormons and Jews -- still cited the same old testament and ten commandments.</p>
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<p></p> Whether or not a "core Christ…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-05:2477478:Comment:889292013-04-05T02:50:16.391ZAl Smitleyhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/AlSmitley
<p>Whether or not a "core Christian belief" is to treat others as yourself, certainly most racists I have known (and most all American slaveholders) considered themselves "Christians".</p>
<p>Whether or not a "core Christian belief" is to treat others as yourself, certainly most racists I have known (and most all American slaveholders) considered themselves "Christians".</p> I don't think he "allowed' bl…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-05:2477478:Comment:889862013-04-05T02:16:01.097ZTim Twisshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>I don't think he "allowed' blinders....they were just there.</p>
<p>I don't think he "allowed' blinders....they were just there.</p> BTW...don't get me wrong....t…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-04:2477478:Comment:889782013-04-04T18:13:17.719ZTim Twisshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>BTW...don't get me wrong....those racial views were certainly "planks".</p>
<p>BTW...don't get me wrong....those racial views were certainly "planks".</p> My dad...speaking of racism i…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-04:2477478:Comment:889772013-04-04T18:12:01.153ZTim Twisshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>My dad...speaking of racism in the military..as a WWII Navy vet "didn't see any".</p>
<p>Look again.</p>
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<p>My dad...speaking of racism in the military..as a WWII Navy vet "didn't see any".</p>
<p>Look again.</p>
<p></p> Very well put John....
I tru…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-04-04:2477478:Comment:891402013-04-04T18:06:53.489ZJeffhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JeffFauver
<p>Very well put John.... </p>
<p>I truly feel we are a product of our environment. We can be all good, non-judgmental with or family and our kids.</p>
<p><font size="2">But, we get to our work </font>environment and our language, attitudes, and the way we treat and judge others change... </p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13px;">Then on the way home we may think of our actions, But well we truly change them? </span></p>
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<p><font size="2">As I read that page Tim posted... It brought back…</font></p>
<p>Very well put John.... </p>
<p>I truly feel we are a product of our environment. We can be all good, non-judgmental with or family and our kids.</p>
<p><font size="2">But, we get to our work </font>environment and our language, attitudes, and the way we treat and judge others change... </p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13px;">Then on the way home we may think of our actions, But well we truly change them? </span></p>
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<p><font size="2">As I read that page Tim posted... It brought back some memories of my childhood past of Great Grand Family and how they talked and treated the same people Strumelia mentioned. And its sickens me to this day that was the product a of my </font>environment<font size="2"> </font></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13px;">Yes, I am part of the near or over 50 gang as well... </span><font size="2" style="font-size: 13px;"><br/></font></p>
<p><br/> <cite>John Masciale said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/what-do-you-think-of-this?xg_source=activity&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A88468&page=4#2477478Comment88925"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>This is a difficult topic for me to engage in without talking about the philosophy of religion, but I'll try. I often think about how horrified the people of 150 years ago would be to look at us today. It is easy for us to sit in judgement of them, but would we listen to their judgement of us? Are their judgements and predjudices less valid than our own? Are we superior to them because we are living in a later age? Something Strumelia has been saying has been hitting a resonance with me with one of the courses I'm taking in seminary. History has a purpose, and its purpose is to teach us not to make the same mistakes we made in the past. The question is, will we draw the right conclusions, will we learn? One of the great things about human nature is that we can choose to overcome our base instincts, we can change. One thing that I like about Pascal is that he forces us to look in the mirror, in spite of the fact that we may not like what we are seeing when we look there. This is true with racism, and predjudices in general. We can choose to change, but will we change, and if so, will we change the right things? I'll get out of the pulpit now...</p>
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