Right-hand technique - minstrel guitar style? - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-28T13:36:59Zhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/righthand-technique-minstrel?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A10799&feed=yes&xn_auth=noCheers, Vince.tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2012-06-25:2477478:Comment:695692012-06-25T05:59:23.075ZRob MacKillophttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
Cheers, Vince.
Cheers, Vince. Rob, thanks for the validatio…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2012-06-25:2477478:Comment:695072012-06-25T03:34:49.928ZVince Abadiehttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/VinceAbadie
<p>Rob, thanks for the validation on that. I also very much enjoyed the videos and the commentary in the link you provided. I've subscribed to your You Tube page...thanks for posting some excellent music! </p>
<p>Rob, thanks for the validation on that. I also very much enjoyed the videos and the commentary in the link you provided. I've subscribed to your You Tube page...thanks for posting some excellent music! </p> Sure, Vince. This is indeed a…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2012-06-24:2477478:Comment:695502012-06-24T07:30:36.193ZRob MacKillophttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
Sure, Vince. This is indeed an old discussion, and I have refined my thoughts on it here:<br />
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<a href="http://www.classicbanjorm.com/earlyfingerstyle.html" target="_blank">http://www.classicbanjorm.com/earlyfingerstyle.html</a><br />
<br />
Note especially Converse's version of "Brigg's Favorite Jig" which he writes out for fingerstyle playing. And his claim for fingerstyle that<br />
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"...This manner of fingering--as I learned in later years when visiting Southern plantations--was characteristic of the early…
Sure, Vince. This is indeed an old discussion, and I have refined my thoughts on it here:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.classicbanjorm.com/earlyfingerstyle.html" target="_blank">http://www.classicbanjorm.com/earlyfingerstyle.html</a><br />
<br />
Note especially Converse's version of "Brigg's Favorite Jig" which he writes out for fingerstyle playing. And his claim for fingerstyle that<br />
<br />
"...This manner of fingering--as I learned in later years when visiting Southern plantations--was characteristic of the early colored player."<br />
<br />
The polarity of stroke=African, fingerstyle=European, just doesn't stack up. Both techniques were around - fact. Do whatever floats your boat. I know I'm commenting on a ve…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2012-06-24:2477478:Comment:694852012-06-24T05:47:20.954ZVince Abadiehttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/VinceAbadie
<p>I know I'm commenting on a very old thread. That being said, after watching endless videos of people on this site, and people not on this site, but respected as period experts, I have to say that there obviously is a place for upstrokes. While the majority of minstrel music seems to follow the stroke style traditions, there was a lot of music being played during the antebellum period that was not "minstrel" music. </p>
<p>I know I'm commenting on a very old thread. That being said, after watching endless videos of people on this site, and people not on this site, but respected as period experts, I have to say that there obviously is a place for upstrokes. While the majority of minstrel music seems to follow the stroke style traditions, there was a lot of music being played during the antebellum period that was not "minstrel" music. </p> I don’t have the Dobson broth…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2009-08-27:2477478:Comment:115252009-08-27T12:29:06.000ZRob MacKillophttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
I don’t have the Dobson brothers’ 1871 publication, but according to Weidlich, it does mention playing banjo-style pieces with guitar-style technique:<br />
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“…the same piece in many cases may be performed in either style” Modern Method, 1871<br />
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[If anyone has a pdf of this book, I would like to see it…]<br />
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The Dobson’s 1882 publication, Dobson’s Universal Banjo Instructor (four years <i>before</i> Converse’s Analytical, and available from <a href="http://www.ClassicBanjo.com">www.ClassicBanjo.com</a>)…
I don’t have the Dobson brothers’ 1871 publication, but according to Weidlich, it does mention playing banjo-style pieces with guitar-style technique:<br />
<br />
“…the same piece in many cases may be performed in either style” Modern Method, 1871<br />
<br />
[If anyone has a pdf of this book, I would like to see it…]<br />
<br />
The Dobson’s 1882 publication, Dobson’s Universal Banjo Instructor (four years <i>before</i> Converse’s Analytical, and available from <a href="http://www.ClassicBanjo.com">www.ClassicBanjo.com</a>) mentions only guitar style:<br />
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‘…the fingers should pick up the strings towards the palm of the hand’<br />
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Notably, the repertoire is still old-school: Cracovienne, jigs, clogs, reels, walk arounds, and a Foster song, ‘Way Down Upon The Swanee Ribber’.<br />
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It seems to me that as the two styles (stroke and guitar) existed side-by-side from as early as Briggs’ Instructor, there was inevitably a cross-over. Although Converse segregated the styles in his books, there are in fact pieces which do crossover, such as Foster’s Jig, marked ‘A-La Banjo’, which appears in the ‘guitar’ section of his Analytical (page 61).<br />
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It seems a legitimate practice to perform stroke-style pieces with guitar technique, although it works better with some pieces that others, especially if playing in an ensemble situation, where the percussive quality of the stroke technique is much more in keeping with the overall style. Something preying on my mind as I struggle to learn stroke style! Of course, you are right, Gre…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2009-07-29:2477478:Comment:108222009-07-29T21:46:01.000ZRob MacKillophttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
Of course, you are right, Greg. I should have realised. It is an interesting concept in itself, and raises a few question marks. For those without a copy to hand, this is what Briggs says (with my shorthand) on page 30, the page before Annie Lawrie:<br />
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====================================<br />
To play in the Key of C and F, tune Third String to C<br />
Ditto Key of Db and Cb, ditto Db<br />
Ditto Eb and Ab, ditto Eb<br />
Ditto E and A, ditto E<br />
Ditto F and Bb, ditto F<br />
Ditto D and G, ditto D<br />
Ditto F# and B, ditto…
Of course, you are right, Greg. I should have realised. It is an interesting concept in itself, and raises a few question marks. For those without a copy to hand, this is what Briggs says (with my shorthand) on page 30, the page before Annie Lawrie:<br />
<br />
====================================<br />
To play in the Key of C and F, tune Third String to C<br />
Ditto Key of Db and Cb, ditto Db<br />
Ditto Eb and Ab, ditto Eb<br />
Ditto E and A, ditto E<br />
Ditto F and Bb, ditto F<br />
Ditto D and G, ditto D<br />
Ditto F# and B, ditto F#<br />
Ditto Gb and Cb, ditto Gb<br />
<br />
…The learner should frequently change the PITCH, in playing the foregoing pieces, and he will thus obtain a pleasing variety in the sound.<br />
===================================<br />
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He also states that once we have tuned the third string to the new pitch, we must tune the other strings accordingly so that we end up with the same pitch intervals between the strings. In other words we have the same fingering as usual for the notes we see on the page, but the music comes out higher or lower.<br />
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Looked at a little closer, he is asking us to change all the strings from a tone below normal tuning up to a Major 3rd higher (D string up to F#/Gb) – now, with gut strings, this is quite a leap, not to mention the huge increase in tension on the skin. Would anyone here willingly tune a major 3rd higher on all the strings? Did no-one tell the guy about capos? They had been around for a long time before his publication. Maybe a capo wouldn’t work on a fretless fingerboard? The fact that he expects a gut string to rise by as much as a major 3rd gives some indication of how loose the strings must be at ‘normal’ pitch.<br />
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Anyway, that aside, he is asking us to do this on the ‘foregoing’ (preceding) pieces, in other words, the solos. Does anyone here do this? I remember Tim saying he tuned up from D to E and enjoyed doing so. Maybe we need to bring more variety of pitch into our performances of this music? Nylgut should make the job easier, but gut is more in keeping with Briggs’ sound world.<br />
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Regarding the songs…is he asking us to tune down a tone just for Annie Lawrie, or for all the songs. Looking ahead, four songs later (Wait For The Wagon) he again asks us to tune down a tone – so each time it is for a specific song. If he is asking us to do so because of the pitch range for singing, he must have a specific voice in mind. Surely it is up to the performer to take Briggs’ recommendation of varying overall pitches, to find a suitable pitch to match his/her voice? Or is it because these are ARRANGEMENTS FROM A PIANO/VOCAL SCORE – as Greg was suggesting we do to expand the repertoire? In which case he was maybe indicating the original published key.<br />
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The more we learn, the less we know… When page 31 says to turn the…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2009-07-29:2477478:Comment:108122009-07-29T19:54:18.000ZGreg Adamshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/GregAdams
When page 31 says to turn the third string to C, I believe that the common interpretation is that you then tune the remaining strings accordingly (c-F-C-E-G) as is outlined on the previous page (30). I believe that one functional purpose for doing so considers the range of the male voice. As one who occasionally sings these songs, C major makes the tune much more accessible for me and my own vocal range.<br />
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<cite>Rob MacKillop said:…</cite>
When page 31 says to turn the third string to C, I believe that the common interpretation is that you then tune the remaining strings accordingly (c-F-C-E-G) as is outlined on the previous page (30). I believe that one functional purpose for doing so considers the range of the male voice. As one who occasionally sings these songs, C major makes the tune much more accessible for me and my own vocal range.<br />
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<cite>Rob MacKillop said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/righthand-technique-minstrel?page=1&commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A10811&x=1#2477478Comment10811"><div>Thanks for the link to the book, Dan'l. Looks a good read, and does indeed mention the guittar, although it repeats a few old and tired theories about it.<br/> <br/>
One further observation about Briggs' first song, Annie Lawrie. Why does he say 'Tune third string to C'? From what follows, there seems no need to do so. Printing error? Or am I missing the obvious?</div>
</blockquote> Thanks for the link to the bo…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2009-07-29:2477478:Comment:108112009-07-29T19:41:06.000ZRob MacKillophttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
Thanks for the link to the book, Dan'l. Looks a good read, and does indeed mention the guittar, although it repeats a few old and tired theories about it.<br />
<br />
One further observation about Briggs' first song, Annie Lawrie. Why does he say 'Tune third string to C'? From what follows, there seems no need to do so. Printing error? Or am I missing the obvious?
Thanks for the link to the book, Dan'l. Looks a good read, and does indeed mention the guittar, although it repeats a few old and tired theories about it.<br />
<br />
One further observation about Briggs' first song, Annie Lawrie. Why does he say 'Tune third string to C'? From what follows, there seems no need to do so. Printing error? Or am I missing the obvious? I've just listened to Greg's…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2009-07-29:2477478:Comment:108062009-07-29T09:11:37.000ZRob MacKillophttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
I've just listened to Greg's discussion on Vocal Music and Expanding the Repertoire - very good. It brought to mind my research into the Scottish 'guittar' publications of the late 18th-century. Maybe I'll find time to expand some initial thoughts into an essay on the similarities between the guittar and banjo vocal accompaniments. The guittar, by the way, is often called the English Guitar, although the first publication for it was published in Edinburgh in 1758 and is full of traditional…
I've just listened to Greg's discussion on Vocal Music and Expanding the Repertoire - very good. It brought to mind my research into the Scottish 'guittar' publications of the late 18th-century. Maybe I'll find time to expand some initial thoughts into an essay on the similarities between the guittar and banjo vocal accompaniments. The guittar, by the way, is often called the English Guitar, although the first publication for it was published in Edinburgh in 1758 and is full of traditional Scottish tunes. But that's another story. I think it might be worth looking into, however, as this guittar was apparently very popular in the East Coast USA in the early decades of the 19th century, and maybe we are assuming too much in thinking that guitar style refers to the classical guitar exclusively? I'll chew on that for a while and get back to you. All interesting replies. John…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2009-07-29:2477478:Comment:108042009-07-29T06:45:17.000ZRob MacKillophttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
All interesting replies. John, coming from a purely stroke/clawhammer background fears guitar style, while Tim from a guitar background shifts easily between the two. I think this is perfectly natural and was probably very common in the old days. There probably was a variety of ways of playing the core repertoire.<br />
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I think we must all agree that solos in guitar style were around before Converse made a feature of it. It's hard to argue that guitar style was 'less African' as many African players…
All interesting replies. John, coming from a purely stroke/clawhammer background fears guitar style, while Tim from a guitar background shifts easily between the two. I think this is perfectly natural and was probably very common in the old days. There probably was a variety of ways of playing the core repertoire.<br />
<br />
I think we must all agree that solos in guitar style were around before Converse made a feature of it. It's hard to argue that guitar style was 'less African' as many African players played in guitar style. But it is clear from Converse's perspective that guitar style both shared and expanded the repertoire, as some of his pieces are clearly old stroke style pieces in guitar technique, while some are decidedly more European (shall we say) than was normal for banjo repertoire at the time.<br />
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There is no doubt in my mind that stroke technique is the more suitable for much of the core solo repertoire, but that guitar style was probably also used for the same (solo) pieces from early on, and it has some legitimacy to play that way today. Having said that, I am exploring stroke technique and enjoying doing so.