Repertoire advice? Early banjo pieces that show African influence? - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-29T06:25:50Zhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/repertoire-advice-early-banjo-pieces-that-show-african-influence?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A117080&feed=yes&xn_auth=noSharpe was on a mission from…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2022-09-03:2477478:Comment:2951192022-09-03T18:46:26.450ZTony Thomashttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TonyThomas
<p>Sharpe was on a mission from the British government to accentuate ties between the US and Britain and to emphasize the cultural ties between Great Britain and US, to help encourage the US to support the British Empire in WWI including encouraging US entry into the war. His Anglo-Saxonist racial ideas has led to a major revision of scholarly consideration of his work in the UK. He rather famously attributed many ballads and songs obviously of Irish. Scots, or Welsh origin to be Anglo…</p>
<p>Sharpe was on a mission from the British government to accentuate ties between the US and Britain and to emphasize the cultural ties between Great Britain and US, to help encourage the US to support the British Empire in WWI including encouraging US entry into the war. His Anglo-Saxonist racial ideas has led to a major revision of scholarly consideration of his work in the UK. He rather famously attributed many ballads and songs obviously of Irish. Scots, or Welsh origin to be Anglo Saxon-English, for example. He did collect one or two songs from Black people during his journey in the United States. Sharpe did little of the actual collecting.</p>
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<p>He still found a lot of good music and especially ballads, but he discounted other music. He had highly derogatory and classist attitudes to the actual music being made by even white Southern string bands. He was not a fun guy!</p> I misspoke (wrote) I meant th…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-21:2477478:Comment:1173272014-08-21T02:41:52.371ZTom Meisenheimerhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TomMeisenheimer
<p>I misspoke (wrote) I meant the Roustabout from Mike Seeger's CD but then I heard another Roustabout, I think from the Return to Cold Mountain CD...maybe not. Any way, even so, I still see that possible African influence. I am trying to find out as much as I can handle and what I can easily present in an hour and a half to an audience that considers Dueling Banjos the epitome of banjo music! I don't have a scholars appreciation of "our" music but I truly love its many manifestations. I came…</p>
<p>I misspoke (wrote) I meant the Roustabout from Mike Seeger's CD but then I heard another Roustabout, I think from the Return to Cold Mountain CD...maybe not. Any way, even so, I still see that possible African influence. I am trying to find out as much as I can handle and what I can easily present in an hour and a half to an audience that considers Dueling Banjos the epitome of banjo music! I don't have a scholars appreciation of "our" music but I truly love its many manifestations. I came to this music because of what I heard. I heard a music sympathetic of the "human condition". Corny as it might sound, Willie Nelson's definition of country music being "three chords and the truth" actually means a great deal to me and though I might be a bit naive I believe truth is more to be found in music than all other works of man.</p>
<p>This has been a fascinating discussion and I am grateful it is going on.</p>
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<p>Thank you all.</p>
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<p>Tom</p>
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<p> <br/> s<br/> <cite>Jared Denhard said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/repertoire-advice-early-banjo-pieces-that-show-african-influence?id=2477478%3ATopic%3A116897&page=5#2477478Comment117404"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Tom-</p>
<p>Roustabout certainly has that floating melody over intense rhythm, like the Ekonting songs all seem to.</p>
<p>I was also planning to do a more elaborate (audience friendly) version of Juba, based on the variants in Converse book, adding as many fancy strokes as I can safely pull off! I wrote a little cakewalk tune to use as "bookends" since the Juba is really just a 4 chord (A-D-A-E) vamp.</p>
<p>I think that all of the suggestions by people here have basis for a strong argument, especially since there probably is no one "Holy Grail." I buy Paul's theory that the Gottschalk holds the key for what playing techniques are most authentic, so trying to include those strokes and effects could help make tunes like Debble on a Holiday, Injun Rubber, or even any of the Briggs hornpipes/jigs sound convincing. They are after all, the first generation of notated material for the banjo, and a logical place to start looking for echoes. I also like the idea of Hobson's Jig, but maybe because I like playing it. Oh well. </p>
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</blockquote> I hear you, John. Yes, any "c…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-19:2477478:Comment:1174072014-08-19T12:54:15.704ZJared Denhardhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JaredDenhard
<p>I hear you, John. Yes, any "creative reconstruction/reinterpretation" would definitely require a warning label, as an guess at best, hindsight bastardization at worst. But hopefully not a mortal sin...</p>
<p>I'm just waiting for Eric Prust to start making Ekontings-</p>
<p>Thanks for the Emmett reminder! </p>
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<p>I hear you, John. Yes, any "creative reconstruction/reinterpretation" would definitely require a warning label, as an guess at best, hindsight bastardization at worst. But hopefully not a mortal sin...</p>
<p>I'm just waiting for Eric Prust to start making Ekontings-</p>
<p>Thanks for the Emmett reminder! </p>
<p></p> Don't forget Dan Emmett's man…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-19:2477478:Comment:1174062014-08-19T12:34:50.799ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
Don't forget Dan Emmett's manuscripts as a source for early tunes. If I were you, I'd err on the side of caution when modifying these tunes to exaggerate (what we think are) west African influences. It isn't right to change these tunes to make them sound how you want so that you can use them to support an argument or educate an audience. If you want to teach them about west African music, you should play the Ekonting. Likewise if you want to inform them about minstrelsy, you should play some…
Don't forget Dan Emmett's manuscripts as a source for early tunes. If I were you, I'd err on the side of caution when modifying these tunes to exaggerate (what we think are) west African influences. It isn't right to change these tunes to make them sound how you want so that you can use them to support an argument or educate an audience. If you want to teach them about west African music, you should play the Ekonting. Likewise if you want to inform them about minstrelsy, you should play some minstrel tunes. If your goal is to teach them about perceived west African influences in minstrel tunes, I think it doesn't respect history to exaggerate those influences. Instead you should play the tunes the way we found them, and explain what about them is related to west African music and why. Just my two cents. Hi Tom-
Roustabout certainly…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-19:2477478:Comment:1174042014-08-19T11:41:50.045ZJared Denhardhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JaredDenhard
<p>Hi Tom-</p>
<p>Roustabout certainly has that floating melody over intense rhythm, like the Ekonting songs all seem to.</p>
<p>I was also planning to do a more elaborate (audience friendly) version of Juba, based on the variants in Converse book, adding as many fancy strokes as I can safely pull off! I wrote a little cakewalk tune to use as "bookends" since the Juba is really just a 4 chord (A-D-A-E) vamp.</p>
<p>I think that all of the suggestions by people here have basis for a strong…</p>
<p>Hi Tom-</p>
<p>Roustabout certainly has that floating melody over intense rhythm, like the Ekonting songs all seem to.</p>
<p>I was also planning to do a more elaborate (audience friendly) version of Juba, based on the variants in Converse book, adding as many fancy strokes as I can safely pull off! I wrote a little cakewalk tune to use as "bookends" since the Juba is really just a 4 chord (A-D-A-E) vamp.</p>
<p>I think that all of the suggestions by people here have basis for a strong argument, especially since there probably is no one "Holy Grail." I buy Paul's theory that the Gottschalk holds the key for what playing techniques are most authentic, so trying to include those strokes and effects could help make tunes like Debble on a Holiday, Injun Rubber, or even any of the Briggs hornpipes/jigs sound convincing. They are after all, the first generation of notated material for the banjo, and a logical place to start looking for echoes. I also like the idea of Hobson's Jig, but maybe because I like playing it. Oh well. </p> I'm afraid this isn't a reply…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-19:2477478:Comment:1171342014-08-19T03:05:58.104ZTom Meisenheimerhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TomMeisenheimer
<p>I'm afraid this isn't a reply but a request. I, too, am putting together a "historic" program in late October. I am gathering instruments and numbers and I would like to have at least two examples of West African influenced music. Should you wish to share what you find with me I would greatly appreciate it.</p>
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<p>I think that "Roustabout" might be a West African influenced number but that is because of it's similarity to current West African music. The words of Roustabout are…</p>
<p>I'm afraid this isn't a reply but a request. I, too, am putting together a "historic" program in late October. I am gathering instruments and numbers and I would like to have at least two examples of West African influenced music. Should you wish to share what you find with me I would greatly appreciate it.</p>
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<p>I think that "Roustabout" might be a West African influenced number but that is because of it's similarity to current West African music. The words of Roustabout are "floating" verses, appearing in a great many, especially "play party", tunes.</p>
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<p>What seems West African to me is Roustabout's tune. I'm new to this genre of music and obviously not an ethnomusicolgist, heck I don't even have a formal education in music.</p>
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<p>If you find what you are seeking please post it if you can.</p>
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<p>Tom</p> There was plenty of cane and…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-15:2477478:Comment:1172592014-08-15T13:54:07.138ZJohn Mascialehttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnMasciale
<p>There was plenty of cane and sticks in the Caribbean to be found and to make an instrument from. It was a deliberate innovation, just as the tuning pegs were. Someone, or some people were bent on making a better instrument. Adding an additional playing string, changing the finger board around, adding tuning pegs are all innovation and experimentation. You certainly see evidence of this in the 19th century as well, 5 and 6 string banjos, frets, tension rods, a wooden hoop. It was an…</p>
<p>There was plenty of cane and sticks in the Caribbean to be found and to make an instrument from. It was a deliberate innovation, just as the tuning pegs were. Someone, or some people were bent on making a better instrument. Adding an additional playing string, changing the finger board around, adding tuning pegs are all innovation and experimentation. You certainly see evidence of this in the 19th century as well, 5 and 6 string banjos, frets, tension rods, a wooden hoop. It was an instrument that was evolving. Some of the innovations did not stick, others did.</p>
<p></p> Well, what I mean by less-hap…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-14:2477478:Comment:1170832014-08-14T20:59:50.969ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
Well, what I mean by less-haphazard is there were plenty of plants with round stalks available in the Caribbean, so I doubt it was lack of materials that drove slaves to make flat fingerboards.
Well, what I mean by less-haphazard is there were plenty of plants with round stalks available in the Caribbean, so I doubt it was lack of materials that drove slaves to make flat fingerboards. It's my understanding that ba…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-14:2477478:Comment:1172572014-08-14T18:14:28.765ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
It's my understanding that banjos acquired flat fingerboards from Spanish instruments like the vihuela/ early guitar. I don't imagine is was quite as haphazard as you suggest.
It's my understanding that banjos acquired flat fingerboards from Spanish instruments like the vihuela/ early guitar. I don't imagine is was quite as haphazard as you suggest. Agreed, I only meant in the e…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-08-14:2477478:Comment:1173452014-08-14T16:53:23.999ZJared Denhardhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JaredDenhard
<p>Agreed, I only meant in the extant repertoire associated with the instrument, sadly disconnecting it for so many generations from its cultural origins.</p>
<p>The Gottschalk truly seems to be a Rosetta Stone in this regard, and I think your work/research here is a fine balance of hard evidence and good artistic intuition. </p>
<p>Agreed, I only meant in the extant repertoire associated with the instrument, sadly disconnecting it for so many generations from its cultural origins.</p>
<p>The Gottschalk truly seems to be a Rosetta Stone in this regard, and I think your work/research here is a fine balance of hard evidence and good artistic intuition. </p>