Metal-Clad Rims? - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-29T01:53:03Zhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/metal-clad-rims?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A112072&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Dan'l,
What was Swaim Stew…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-26:2477478:Comment:1119292014-04-26T12:10:41.483ZJoel Hookshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Hi Dan'l,</p>
<p>What was Swaim Stewarts "agenda?" </p>
<p>Are you referencing the "classical era" of the banjo that <em>never happened?</em><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Dan'l said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/metal-clad-rims?xg_source=activity&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A111943&page=2#2477478Comment112139"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Rob - That's not quite right to say that "<em>it has always been thus... it's called marketing</em>" regarding…</p>
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<p>Hi Dan'l,</p>
<p>What was Swaim Stewarts "agenda?" </p>
<p>Are you referencing the "classical era" of the banjo that <em>never happened?</em><br/> <br/> <cite>Dan'l said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/metal-clad-rims?xg_source=activity&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A111943&page=2#2477478Comment112139"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Rob - That's not quite right to say that "<em>it has always been thus... it's called marketing</em>" regarding Minstrel-era banjos. Calculated marketing really wasn't the effective norm until the 20th century, and more so middle to late 20th century. Using a modern filter to evaluate period instruments may miss the probable truth of these old instruments.</p>
<p> Many of the least expensive items of the day, including banjos, were just as likely to be of high quality (with features like real metal cladding making for stable hoops) as they were to be low quality (with imitation metal "cladding" and unstable hoops) yet both would sell at near the same price. True enough, some builders would copy or attempt to copy a competitor's feature, but that's only a sort of prototype to serious marketing after all.</p>
<p> The founders and owners of manufacturing enterprises themselves were the ones making build and promotion decisions based on gut-feeling, guessed-at opportunity, or even an agenda (SS Stewart). They didn't yet call on a product development or marketing staff to study and calculate what was <em>actually</em> the most effective level of product quality, price point, or advertising investment to proceed with.</p>
<p> Your Daniel Boone hat became a Davy Crockett hat in the much later, and more calculated, age of Madison Avenue.</p>
<p> Dan'l</p>
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</blockquote> Dan'l--. I was referring to…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1120722014-04-25T21:10:10.133ZRob Morrisonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobertRMorrison
<p>Dan'l--. I was referring to the "minstrel" banjos being produced now. My other point was that the Dobson's paid to put their names on the banjos made by others for them. They were not financing banjos, however similar to theirs, without their name. Branding was certainly alive and well in the 19th century, regardless of whether or not the term marketing applied as used today. </p>
<p>Dan'l--. I was referring to the "minstrel" banjos being produced now. My other point was that the Dobson's paid to put their names on the banjos made by others for them. They were not financing banjos, however similar to theirs, without their name. Branding was certainly alive and well in the 19th century, regardless of whether or not the term marketing applied as used today. </p> I knew I had seen the butterf…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1120652014-04-25T12:42:42.192ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
I knew I had seen the butterfly marquetry somewhere before. The 5th string nut is also the same. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.banjodatabase.org/ViewMoreImages.asp?ID=227&imgtype=undefined&title=undefined" target="_blank">http://www.banjodatabase.org/ViewMoreImages.asp?ID=227&imgtype=...</a>
I knew I had seen the butterfly marquetry somewhere before. The 5th string nut is also the same. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.banjodatabase.org/ViewMoreImages.asp?ID=227&imgtype=undefined&title=undefined" target="_blank">http://www.banjodatabase.org/ViewMoreImages.asp?ID=227&imgtype=...</a> Thanks for the info Joel. A f…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1117332014-04-25T11:48:05.422ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
Thanks for the info Joel. A few people have also suggested that the first banjo I posted is a Cubley. Apparently Edwin Cubley was making banjos in the 1870s and maybe earlier, contrary to the 1881 starting date often given on the web. Aside from the marquetry, which could have been sourced rather than made by the maker, the most striking feature of the banjo is the elegantly executed carve at the 5th string peg.
Thanks for the info Joel. A few people have also suggested that the first banjo I posted is a Cubley. Apparently Edwin Cubley was making banjos in the 1870s and maybe earlier, contrary to the 1881 starting date often given on the web. Aside from the marquetry, which could have been sourced rather than made by the maker, the most striking feature of the banjo is the elegantly executed carve at the 5th string peg. Joel--Yes, what you say about…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1120632014-04-25T11:46:54.834ZRob Morrisonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobertRMorrison
<p>Joel--Yes, what you say about the current craving for all things "Dobson" is true, but it has always been thus. It's called marketing. When I was a mere lad in 1954 my Daniel Boone hat suddenly became a Davy Crockett hat overnight. It's the same now with "Boucher " banjos which represented an infinitesimally small proportion of the banjos actually produced and played in the 19th century. </p>
<p>Joel--Yes, what you say about the current craving for all things "Dobson" is true, but it has always been thus. It's called marketing. When I was a mere lad in 1954 my Daniel Boone hat suddenly became a Davy Crockett hat overnight. It's the same now with "Boucher " banjos which represented an infinitesimally small proportion of the banjos actually produced and played in the 19th century. </p> Hi John,
Folks who lived thro…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1117302014-04-25T11:04:57.332ZJoel Hookshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>Folks who lived through it wrote that the clad or "silver rim" banjo started in 1855.</p>
<p>Try to forget any supposed Dobson family influence prior to the very late 1860s to 1870s (unless you want a research project into the early careers of that family, I'd read it-I went far enough to learn that they had some tragedy and depression in their lives and were not above board in their business dealings). They got big in the late 70s.</p>
<p>The banjos that came out of the…</p>
<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>Folks who lived through it wrote that the clad or "silver rim" banjo started in 1855.</p>
<p>Try to forget any supposed Dobson family influence prior to the very late 1860s to 1870s (unless you want a research project into the early careers of that family, I'd read it-I went far enough to learn that they had some tragedy and depression in their lives and were not above board in their business dealings). They got big in the late 70s.</p>
<p>The banjos that came out of the Buckbee factory were Clarke knockoffs. They looked like Clarke banjo but were not the same. Baur wrote about that. Take a look the photos I posted of famous minstrels. Many of those folks are holding Clarke banjos (Converse and Brimmer come to mind).</p>
<p>The "Dobson" brothers actually played with Jimmy Clarke (who himself was a minstrel banjoist).</p>
<p>It is popular (for some reason) to constantly call banjo things "Dobson" currently. Go back 15 or so years and everything was a "Vega." For some reason folks get stuck on a idea.</p>
<p></p>
<p>A Dobson can take (and have) full credit for their closed-back patent banjo but not heel/peghead shape.</p>
<p><br/> <cite>John said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/metal-clad-rims?xg_source=activity#2477478Comment111918"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Ok, yes, this is what I meant. I should have been clearer and said Dobson-style when describing the banjo. Some people have suggested to me that it is a Cubley, but the headstock isn't the correct shape, and I believe the hardware to be older. I also have not found a Cubley that doesn't at least have partial flush frets, if not raised frets. I may purchase this banjo since I'm on the market for a mid 1860s style instrument, hence my question about the clad rim. I've seen a few references to clad rims from the 1860s but I haven't seen any actual banjos with them.<br/> <br/> <cite>Rob Morrison said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/metal-clad-rims?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A111914#2477478Comment112061"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I've got several Buckbee banjos from the 1860's, 1870's, and 1880's, and they resemble the Chas. Dobson banjo I also have. People tell me they are Dobsons, but the only ones that are Dobsons are the ones that one or more of the Dobson brothers paid to have made. I've got a James Morrison banjo made in the Buckbee factory, constructed just like my Chas. Dobson banjo, with the same peghead shape and all, that actually was made with a dowel stick marked "Edward Dobson". The parts were that interchangeable.</p>
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</blockquote> Here are the images as attach…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1117262014-04-25T04:20:53.267ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>Here are the images as attachments...</p>
<p>Here are the images as attachments...</p> It is beautiful. I'm torn be…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1119192014-04-25T04:18:41.288ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>It is beautiful. I'm torn between it and a banjo for sale at Bernunzio that they are holding for me while I decide. Whichever I get, I'll bring it to AEBG along with my Hartel Boucher. Here are a few pictures. I've examined it in person and noticed some interesting things. It was a fretless banjo for a long enough time to wear down the area of the first 7 frets significantly, and after that it was fretted with brass bar frets like those on early to mid 19th century guitars. The…</p>
<p>It is beautiful. I'm torn between it and a banjo for sale at Bernunzio that they are holding for me while I decide. Whichever I get, I'll bring it to AEBG along with my Hartel Boucher. Here are a few pictures. I've examined it in person and noticed some interesting things. It was a fretless banjo for a long enough time to wear down the area of the first 7 frets significantly, and after that it was fretted with brass bar frets like those on early to mid 19th century guitars. The globular hardware seems original, but the wing nuts and hooks are newer. The internal nuts are the old square type. The dowel was modified so that the current tailpiece could be used. The tailpiece is dated 1886, which is where Bernunzio got their date from, but the banjo is older than that. The inlays are wooden and there are carved details that have been painted white. It's pretty primitive marquetry. The tuners are period and are the exact same model as those on a parlor guitar I own that dates from the 1850s to 1860s. That said, this style was produced through the end of the 19th century. I've never seen anything like the grape vine carving at the heel or the other ornamental wood overlays. I think it is an 1870s or 1880s banjo that was thoroughly upgraded, although I guess it could be mid to late 1860s.</p> John--I believe all of my met…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1117252014-04-25T04:00:06.102ZRob Morrisonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/RobertRMorrison
<p>John--I believe all of my metal clad early banjos were from the 1870's and 1880's, but that certainly doesn't mean there weren't any made before that. Again, it's a beautiful instrument.</p>
<p>John--I believe all of my metal clad early banjos were from the 1870's and 1880's, but that certainly doesn't mean there weren't any made before that. Again, it's a beautiful instrument.</p> Ok, yes, this is what I meant…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-04-25:2477478:Comment:1119182014-04-25T03:50:23.879ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>Ok, yes, this is what I meant. I should have been clearer and said Dobson-style when describing the banjo. Some people have suggested to me that it is a Cubley, but the headstock isn't the correct shape, and I believe the hardware to be older. I also have not found a Cubley that doesn't at least have partial flush frets, if not raised frets. I may purchase this banjo since I'm on the market for a mid 1860s style instrument, hence my question about the clad rim. I've seen a few…</p>
<p>Ok, yes, this is what I meant. I should have been clearer and said Dobson-style when describing the banjo. Some people have suggested to me that it is a Cubley, but the headstock isn't the correct shape, and I believe the hardware to be older. I also have not found a Cubley that doesn't at least have partial flush frets, if not raised frets. I may purchase this banjo since I'm on the market for a mid 1860s style instrument, hence my question about the clad rim. I've seen a few references to clad rims from the 1860s but I haven't seen any actual banjos with them.<br/> <br/> <cite>Rob Morrison said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/metal-clad-rims?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A111914#2477478Comment112061"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I've got several Buckbee banjos from the 1860's, 1870's, and 1880's, and they resemble the Chas. Dobson banjo I also have. People tell me they are Dobsons, but the only ones that are Dobsons are the ones that one or more of the Dobson brothers paid to have made. I've got a James Morrison banjo made in the Buckbee factory, constructed just like my Chas. Dobson banjo, with the same peghead shape and all, that actually was made with a dowel stick marked "Edward Dobson". The parts were that interchangeable.</p>
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