Learning to read music Getting past Briggs - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-29T16:01:30Zhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/learning-to-read-music-getting-past-briggs?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A85437&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThe first note of the first m…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-15:2477478:Comment:865402013-03-15T22:12:57.313ZTom Morrisonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TomMorrison
<p>The first note of the first measure is most often the 1st or 3rd or 5th note of the scale which is the major chord. Rarely in my experience is the final note of the tune anything but the 1st note I.e the note of the key</p>
<p></p>
<p>As far as reading music I learned at 8 years of age the E is one note higher on the scale than D so I don't,t see a problem reading music - you just need to know where to find the notes.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I seem to be out of touch with everyone else but music…</p>
<p>The first note of the first measure is most often the 1st or 3rd or 5th note of the scale which is the major chord. Rarely in my experience is the final note of the tune anything but the 1st note I.e the note of the key</p>
<p></p>
<p>As far as reading music I learned at 8 years of age the E is one note higher on the scale than D so I don't,t see a problem reading music - you just need to know where to find the notes.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I seem to be out of touch with everyone else but music scores are simpler than tab because you don't need to worry about half steps and full steps</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Scott Johnson said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/learning-to-read-music-getting-past-briggs?xg_source=msg_com_forum&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A83011&page=6#2477478Comment85437"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="left"><font color="#000000">Yes Tim, I think you are right. Everyone is getting caught up on a tangent.</font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="left"></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="left"><font color="#000000">Lets take a look a things here:</font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>Modern Clawhammer high bass (Standard G tuning)is key of G -> g D G B D, low bass key of C (Standard Minstrel/Classic tuning)- g C G B D & in both cases the 5th string [drone] is G</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Yes this is true, and analogous to D/E and E/A tunings also</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>The key signature tells you what key you are in. </i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Yes, this is true but there is more going on here than meets the eye. (more on this later)</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>So the drone[ 5</i><sup><i>th</i></sup> <i>string ] is always the High Bass note for any tuning and key.</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Not sure what you mean here. The 5<sup>th</sup> string and the 3<sup>rd</sup> string are tuned to the same note (an octave apart) whether the bass string is high or low.</font></p>
<p><i>If High Bass has the 5th string at G or D or E the tune is in the Key of G or D or E. The last note in the score should indicate this.</i></p>
<p><i>Further</i></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>If Low Bass has the 5th String at G or D or E the tune is in the key of the 4th string - Key of C or G or A. The last note in the score should also indicate this</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Basically I think what you are saying is that the last note of a song ends on the root note of what key you are in( Key of G will end on the note G, Same for keys of C,D, or E) . and there is a relationship between the 5<sup>th</sup> string or the bass string. This may be true, but in a practical sense it doesn't really tell you anything. Plus, the last note of a song may also end on a 3<sup>rd</sup> of 5<sup>th</sup> so not all songs end on the root note. So while the relationship between keys, the 5<sup>th</sup> string and bass strings may be interesting, in a practical sense it is not much use.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Remember , whether you raise or lower the 5<sup>th</sup> string is a matter if convenience or custom. In clawhammer, standard G tuning(high bass) is the norm and most songs (whether played in G or C ) are played out of this tuning. Dropping the bass string is the exception. In Minstrel or Classic banjo it is the opposite. The low bass tuning is the norm and raising the bass string is the exception.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Whether all this high bass, low bass stuff is either interesting or confusing, it really has no practical value.</font></p>
<p><br/><br/></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>If you read and play minstrel using standard notation for D and G[Briggs] for E and A[Rice/Converse] just go up a single note in the score.</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>More tedious would to re score and lower each note by one to the more familiar keys</i></font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal;"><font color="#000000">Yes.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">This has more to do with what some of the discussion has been about. The problems with going between the Briggs book and the other books.</span></span></font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000">This is what needs to be remembered : “that any given note on the paper will correspond to a specific position on the fretboard of the banjo. “</font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000">For example, in Rice, Converse and others in E/A, middle C as it appears in the score will always be fingered as <b>1</b><sup><b>st</b></sup> <b>string 2</b><sup><b>nd</b></sup> <b>fret,</b> and all the other notes are in relationship to that.</font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000">In Briggs, middle C as it appears in the score will always be fingered as <b>1</b><sup><b>st</b></sup> <b>string 3rd fret,</b> and all the other notes are in relationship to that. That is the problem, you have to be able to make the adjustment in your fingering to be able to read both. Some people are able to do that, others find it hard to do.</font></p>
<p style="font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000"><i>If you read and play minstrel using standard notation <u>for E and A[Rice/Converse], for D and G[Briggs]</u> just go up a single note in the score.</i></font></p>
<p style="font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-style: normal;">True but you had the underlined portion backwards. I fixed it. Look at the Banjo Rosetta Stone. 1</span><sup><span style="font-style: normal;">st</span></sup> <span style="font-style: normal;">string 2nd fret in Rice/Converse (E/A) is written as</span> <span style="font-style: normal;"><b>middle C</b></span><span style="font-style: normal;">, But 1</span><sup><span style="font-style: normal;">st</span></sup> <span style="font-style: normal;">string 2</span><sup><span style="font-style: normal;">nd</span></sup> <span style="font-style: normal;">fret in Briggs is written as</span> <span style="font-style: normal;"><b>D</b></span> <span style="font-style: normal;">(one note above middle C). As I said before, if you are going to learn to read both you have to make that adjustment.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"> Yes I realize there are sharps in there, but this is for illustration purposes :)</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Learning to read notation in E/A is nice because there is so much written in it, from Rice beginning in 1858 all the way up to many of the books written up to the turn of the century. Having to try to tab all that stuff is in my opinion is more trouble than it is worth. It is actually easier to learn to read the notation.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">On the other hand, learning to read in D/G for just one book is not worth the effort. Especially since there is so much tab available for the Briggs book.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">I'll tackle the key signature thing later if anyone is interested. We'll see if I've cleared anything up or just muddied the waters more.</font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> All these approaches are wond…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-15:2477478:Comment:852492013-03-15T15:49:19.779ZStrumeliahttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<p>All these approaches are wonderful to read, because they are making lightbulbs ficker on in my head like crazy. ;)</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for taking the trouble to explain your approaches!</p>
<p></p>
<p>Scott, I <span style="text-decoration: underline;">love</span> your post, thank you so much, it helped me....but I would beg to differ on one very minor point:</p>
<blockquote><p><font color="#000000">Remember , whether you raise or lower the 5<sup>th</sup> string is a matter if…</font></p>
</blockquote>
<p>All these approaches are wonderful to read, because they are making lightbulbs ficker on in my head like crazy. ;)</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for taking the trouble to explain your approaches!</p>
<p></p>
<p>Scott, I <span style="text-decoration: underline;">love</span> your post, thank you so much, it helped me....but I would beg to differ on one very minor point:</p>
<blockquote><p><font color="#000000">Remember , whether you raise or lower the 5<sup>th</sup> string is a matter if convenience or custom. In clawhammer, standard G tuning(high bass) is the norm and most songs (whether played in G or C ) are played out of this tuning. Dropping the bass string is the exception. In Minstrel or Classic banjo it is the opposite. The low bass tuning is the norm and raising the bass string is the exception.</font></p>
</blockquote>
<p><font color="#000000">-It's more in bluegrass banjo that most songs are played out of standard G tuning. In old-time/clawhammer, the current norm for playing in C or D is to go to double D or double C tuning. And in going from G to C, or going from A to D, one would definitely drop the bass string. I raise and drop the bass string all the time in clawhammer, and so does everyone else I know. Possibly you play clawhammer in a different manner.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">In bluegrass banjo the norm is to stay in standard G tuning and play in closed chord positions up the neck when changing keys. That enables them to play all those confounded bluegrass songs that keep changing key mid-stream, without skipping a beat. <em>Dang!</em> lol</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Clawhammer players tend to re-tune (or use capos and retune the 5th) to change keys. Plus most of us use or at least experiment with other tunings as well (Dead Man's tuning, Sandy River Belle tuning, Reuben's Train tuning, Cumberland Gap tuning, Little Birdie tuning, etc). All strings get variously raised and lowered unless one has not yet progressed from 'Cripple Creek Land'.</font></p> I think I almost went blind t…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-15:2477478:Comment:854452013-03-15T11:38:17.610ZDave Culganhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/OlDanTucker
<p>I think I almost went blind the other day trying to learn "Green Corn" from a printout I made from the Rice tutor that has been so kindly made available on the internet. It was one of those prints where the lines of the staff have all but disappeared and I needed my reading glasses to get started. But like others have been saying there are few notes in these melodies and once you get to recognizing the pattern of notes it flows out without too much trouble.</p>
<p>Tim, I understand what you…</p>
<p>I think I almost went blind the other day trying to learn "Green Corn" from a printout I made from the Rice tutor that has been so kindly made available on the internet. It was one of those prints where the lines of the staff have all but disappeared and I needed my reading glasses to get started. But like others have been saying there are few notes in these melodies and once you get to recognizing the pattern of notes it flows out without too much trouble.</p>
<p>Tim, I understand what you mean about not needing to tune up the base but the way I play I have a hard time when I'm playing out the key of E and that bass string is tuned to A instead of B. Having to fret the low string, and the way it tends to sound in discord when I'm really digging in bothers me a bit. I've been working on some of those medleys from the Rounder recording that go from key of A to E or E to A. And I prefer the medleys with the final tune in A. So I'm one that does tune that string up and down a bit, at least at home when I'm playing on just one banjo all the time. </p> "High bass" is almost inconse…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-15:2477478:Comment:855412013-03-15T01:39:54.452ZTim Twisshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>"High bass" is almost inconsequential. Of the many tunes I play, I actually tune up on only a couple. </p>
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<p>"High bass" is almost inconsequential. Of the many tunes I play, I actually tune up on only a couple. </p>
<table id="HeaderTable" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
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</table> Yes Tim, I think you are righ…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-14:2477478:Comment:854372013-03-14T23:41:22.250ZScott Johnsonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/ScottJohnson
<p align="left" style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font color="#000000">Yes Tim, I think you are right. Everyone is getting caught up on a tangent.</font></p>
<p align="left" style="margin-bottom: 0in;"></p>
<p align="left" style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font color="#000000">Lets take a look a things here:</font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>Modern Clawhammer high bass (Standard G tuning)is key of G -> g D G B D, low bass key of C (Standard Minstrel/Classic…</i></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="left"><font color="#000000">Yes Tim, I think you are right. Everyone is getting caught up on a tangent.</font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="left"></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="left"><font color="#000000">Lets take a look a things here:</font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>Modern Clawhammer high bass (Standard G tuning)is key of G -> g D G B D, low bass key of C (Standard Minstrel/Classic tuning)- g C G B D & in both cases the 5th string [drone] is G</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Yes this is true, and analogous to D/E and E/A tunings also</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>The key signature tells you what key you are in. </i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Yes, this is true but there is more going on here than meets the eye. (more on this later)</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>So the drone[ 5</i><sup><i>th</i></sup> <i>string ] is always the High Bass note for any tuning and key.</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Not sure what you mean here. The 5<sup>th</sup> string and the 3<sup>rd</sup> string are tuned to the same note (an octave apart) whether the bass string is high or low.</font></p>
<p><i>If High Bass has the 5th string at G or D or E the tune is in the Key of G or D or E. The last note in the score should indicate this.</i></p>
<p><i>Further</i></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>If Low Bass has the 5th String at G or D or E the tune is in the key of the 4th string - Key of C or G or A. The last note in the score should also indicate this</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Basically I think what you are saying is that the last note of a song ends on the root note of what key you are in( Key of G will end on the note G, Same for keys of C,D, or E) . and there is a relationship between the 5<sup>th</sup> string or the bass string. This may be true, but in a practical sense it doesn't really tell you anything. Plus, the last note of a song may also end on a 3<sup>rd</sup> of 5<sup>th</sup> so not all songs end on the root note. So while the relationship between keys, the 5<sup>th</sup> string and bass strings may be interesting, in a practical sense it is not much use.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Remember , whether you raise or lower the 5<sup>th</sup> string is a matter if convenience or custom. In clawhammer, standard G tuning(high bass) is the norm and most songs (whether played in G or C ) are played out of this tuning. Dropping the bass string is the exception. In Minstrel or Classic banjo it is the opposite. The low bass tuning is the norm and raising the bass string is the exception.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Whether all this high bass, low bass stuff is either interesting or confusing, it really has no practical value.</font></p>
<p><br/><br/></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>If you read and play minstrel using standard notation for D and G[Briggs] for E and A[Rice/Converse] just go up a single note in the score.</i></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><i>More tedious would to re score and lower each note by one to the more familiar keys</i></font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal;"><font color="#000000">Yes.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">This has more to do with what some of the discussion has been about. The problems with going between the Briggs book and the other books.</span></span></font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000">This is what needs to be remembered : “that any given note on the paper will correspond to a specific position on the fretboard of the banjo. “</font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000">For example, in Rice, Converse and others in E/A, middle C as it appears in the score will always be fingered as <b>1</b><sup><b>st</b></sup> <b>string 2</b><sup><b>nd</b></sup> <b>fret,</b> and all the other notes are in relationship to that.</font></p>
<p style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000">In Briggs, middle C as it appears in the score will always be fingered as <b>1</b><sup><b>st</b></sup> <b>string 3rd fret,</b> and all the other notes are in relationship to that. That is the problem, you have to be able to make the adjustment in your fingering to be able to read both. Some people are able to do that, others find it hard to do.</font></p>
<p style="font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000"><i>If you read and play minstrel using standard notation <u>for E and A[Rice/Converse], for D and G[Briggs]</u> just go up a single note in the score.</i></font></p>
<p style="font-weight: normal;"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-style: normal;">True but you had the underlined portion backwards. I fixed it. Look at the Banjo Rosetta Stone. 1</span><sup><span style="font-style: normal;">st</span></sup> <span style="font-style: normal;">string 2nd fret in Rice/Converse (E/A) is written as</span> <span style="font-style: normal;"><b>middle C</b></span><span style="font-style: normal;">, But 1</span><sup><span style="font-style: normal;">st</span></sup> <span style="font-style: normal;">string 2</span><sup><span style="font-style: normal;">nd</span></sup> <span style="font-style: normal;">fret in Briggs is written as</span> <span style="font-style: normal;"><b>D</b></span> <span style="font-style: normal;">(one note above middle C). As I said before, if you are going to learn to read both you have to make that adjustment.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000"> Yes I realize there are sharps in there, but this is for illustration purposes :)</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">Learning to read notation in E/A is nice because there is so much written in it, from Rice beginning in 1858 all the way up to many of the books written up to the turn of the century. Having to try to tab all that stuff is in my opinion is more trouble than it is worth. It is actually easier to learn to read the notation.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">On the other hand, learning to read in D/G for just one book is not worth the effort. Especially since there is so much tab available for the Briggs book.</font></p>
<p><font color="#000000">I'll tackle the key signature thing later if anyone is interested. We'll see if I've cleared anything up or just muddied the waters more.</font></p> Sorry to jump in...it just se…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-14:2477478:Comment:853372013-03-14T20:07:11.954ZTim Twisshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>Sorry to jump in...it just seems like something simple is getting complicated. There are easier ways to figure out what key you are in.</p>
<p>Sorry to jump in...it just seems like something simple is getting complicated. There are easier ways to figure out what key you are in.</p> So with this logic:
"If Low B…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-14:2477478:Comment:852372013-03-14T19:17:01.980ZJonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Jon
<p>So with this logic:</p>
<p>"If Low Bass has the 5th String at G or D or E the tune is in the key of the 4th string - Key of C or G or A. The last note in the score should also indicate this".</p>
<p>dADF#A - key of A ?</p>
<p>dGDF#A - key of G ?</p>
<p>dAEGB - key of A ?</p>
<p>JonS</p>
<p></p>
<p>So with this logic:</p>
<p>"If Low Bass has the 5th String at G or D or E the tune is in the key of the 4th string - Key of C or G or A. The last note in the score should also indicate this".</p>
<p>dADF#A - key of A ?</p>
<p>dGDF#A - key of G ?</p>
<p>dAEGB - key of A ?</p>
<p>JonS</p>
<p></p> Ok Tom I'm going to check thi…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-13:2477478:Comment:851442013-03-13T14:55:57.434ZStrumeliahttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/Strumelia
<p>Ok Tom I'm going to check this out later today when I have a chance- am in the middle of work now. I think I can now 'get' your description.</p>
<p>Just call us a bunch o' <em>LUNKHEADS !</em> lol</p>
<p>Ok Tom I'm going to check this out later today when I have a chance- am in the middle of work now. I think I can now 'get' your description.</p>
<p>Just call us a bunch o' <em>LUNKHEADS !</em> lol</p> If High Bass has the 5th stri…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-13:2477478:Comment:850442013-03-13T01:32:37.376ZTom Morrisonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TomMorrison
<p>If High Bass has the 5th string at G or D or E the tune is in the Key of G or D or E. The last note in the score should indicate this.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Further</p>
<p></p>
<p>If Low Bass has the 5th String at G or D or E the tune is in the key of the 4th string - Key of C or G or A. The last note in the score should also indicate this</p>
<p></p>
<p>I seem to be out of touch with everyone else's thinking.</p>
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Strumelia said:…</cite></p>
<p>If High Bass has the 5th string at G or D or E the tune is in the Key of G or D or E. The last note in the score should indicate this.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Further</p>
<p></p>
<p>If Low Bass has the 5th String at G or D or E the tune is in the key of the 4th string - Key of C or G or A. The last note in the score should also indicate this</p>
<p></p>
<p>I seem to be out of touch with everyone else's thinking.</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Strumelia said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/learning-to-read-music-getting-past-briggs?xg_source=activity&id=2477478%3ATopic%3A83011&page=6#2477478Comment84848"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Tom, I'm sorry, but even after I carefully read your description over and over and I understand each step, I then get lost at your conclusion when you say:</p>
<blockquote><p>So the drone is always the High Bass note for any tuning and key.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't get what you mean by 'drone' or what that sentence is supposed to mean. You seem to be saying that the 5th string 'drone' is always the same as the bass string note in High Bass minstrel tuning ? I don't think my brain is following the same path as yours somehow... sorry!</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> oops, that's what happens wh…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2013-03-13:2477478:Comment:850432013-03-13T00:30:10.999ZScott Johnsonhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/ScottJohnson
<p>oops, that's what happens when you let your fingers do the walking (old telephone book joke) My bad..</p>
<p>oops, that's what happens when you let your fingers do the walking (old telephone book joke) My bad..</p>