Another "Stupid" Question - Minstrel Banjo2024-03-29T15:46:19Zhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/forum/topics/another-stupid-question?commentId=2477478%3AComment%3A116884&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks Jim for your very info…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-08:2477478:Comment:1189362014-10-08T20:03:57.883ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>Thanks Jim for your very informative post and insight.</p>
<p>Thanks Jim for your very informative post and insight.</p> Well said, Jim. You should w…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-08:2477478:Comment:1187042014-10-08T17:27:22.957ZBob Sayershttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/BobSayers
<p>Well said, Jim. You should write a book (or at least an essay) on the craftsmanship of early banjos and your obvious affection for the same. Bob</p>
<p>Well said, Jim. You should write a book (or at least an essay) on the craftsmanship of early banjos and your obvious affection for the same. Bob</p> Since John has mentioned me a…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-08:2477478:Comment:1189052014-10-08T17:06:42.834ZJames Hartelhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JamesHartel
<p>Since John has mentioned me as a source for some of this discussion, I should respond so he is not blamed for my opinion about Boucher banjos.</p>
<p>As I see it, the popular Boucher banjo with the scrolled peghead and ogee neck is an primary icon of the popular 19th Century Minstrel show. and probably can be aligned, at least symbolically, with Dan Emmet and Joel Sweeney almost as much as the "Stratocaster" is linked to "Rock and Roll" performers like Buddy Holly and, more intensely, with…</p>
<p>Since John has mentioned me as a source for some of this discussion, I should respond so he is not blamed for my opinion about Boucher banjos.</p>
<p>As I see it, the popular Boucher banjo with the scrolled peghead and ogee neck is an primary icon of the popular 19th Century Minstrel show. and probably can be aligned, at least symbolically, with Dan Emmet and Joel Sweeney almost as much as the "Stratocaster" is linked to "Rock and Roll" performers like Buddy Holly and, more intensely, with Jimi Hendrix.</p>
<p>John has mentioned that I think that Boucher made "crappy" banjos. I do, but not all of them are. It seems only the early Boucher banjos that were mass produced quickly and cheaply are fragile. One wonders how so many survived the years. To see examples of "better" Boucher banjos (quality instruments that were sold under the Boucher name,) you can to go to Greg Adams and George Wunderlich's banjodatabase.org. The "Rabbit Ear" model is a hearty solid instrument with cast brackets and a deep 13.5" rim. And unlike the early mass produced Boucher model which I think we are all reviewing here, the neck is arched nicely off the rim. The other higher quality Boucher banjo on the "banjodatabase" is listed as "Boucher Late Model." It's fingerboard and peghead is generously ornamented and it has a spun over rim with fine solid nickel-plated hardware. You can also check out "Hank Schwartz Design" to see a couple more nice Boucher banjos - one is quite exquisite.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hschwartz.com/banjopages/Boucher/Boucher.html" target="_blank">http://www.hschwartz.com/banjopages/Boucher/Boucher.html</a><br/><a href="http://www.hschwartz.com/banjopages/BoucherLate/BoucherLate.html" target="_blank">http://www.hschwartz.com/banjopages/BoucherLate/BoucherLate.html</a></p>
<p>When I make a copy of the popular scrolled-head Boucher banjo, it seems to beg to be improved and better adjusted so that it plays well. Over the years, I have found that, although some performers want the instruments to look like they were made in the 19th Century, all prefer that they handle well and sound solid. So I do make modifications while holding as close as possible to the original overall design. some modifications that I prefer are:</p>
<p><br/>1. Thicker metal butterfly brackets, wing nuts, tension hoop. <br/>2. A slightly thicker rim and thicker neck (many originals necks are only 5/8" at the third position, which I feel is too flat -I prefer about 3/4"+.<br/> 3. I also like to sharpen up the lines when carving the back of the neck. I put all the turns and edges in the right places but make everything more defined.<br/> 4. I also arch the neck back to bring the action down to the fingerboard with a high bridge - there is little or no arch on the original Boucher - contemporary banjos use about 3 degrees. I also arch the peghead back to about 12 degrees. The original is at about 5 degrees. This helps keep the strings from popping out to the nut.</p>
<p>Also I have included some detail images of an original Boucher neck which illustrate some of the weakness of the original construction.</p>
<p>Image 1 - the original butterfly bracket is weak and prone to failure. I use thicker brass and anchor it with screws rather tacks. <br/>Image 2 and 3 - Original wing nut on the left - my reproduction wing nut on the right.. From the side they pretty much look identical but one is much stronger. <br/>Image 4 - Since it seems to me that Boucher banjo makers cut corners to save on steps and materials, perhaps the offset round end of the dowel is evidence of that - not centered because to center it would require two parallel cuts rather than one.<br/>Image 6 - The arch of the peghead in relation to the fingerboard is only about 5 degrees.<br/>Image 7 - The scarf joint on the heel end of the neck shows how they conserved wood and painted over to hide the joint. I make one-piece necks and accent the natural grain. </p>
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<p>After all is said and done, I enjoy making the early Boucher banjo more than any other. Not just because of it's beautiful and distinctive profile which I interpret as a presumptuous but naive appropriation of the "empire" style. The shape and fragility of the Boucher banjo embodies the spirit and fragile beginnings of the early popular music period. I enjoy emulating the movement of the workers that first produce this instrument. For me it is a dance of hands and eyes that imitates and embodies the clumsy beginnings of a social mass using it's own "crappy" condition as a source of music and entertainment. </p>
<p></p> The banjo is a relatively sim…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-07:2477478:Comment:1187842014-10-07T03:43:57.200ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
The banjo is a relatively simple instrument as far as its construction is concerned, and the few changes Jim Hartel makes are actually very important. His Bouchers have thicker necks since the originals are too thin and prone to stability problems. He also makes his rims out of different, stronger materials, and he does not use the thin, scalloped rim design because of it's inherent weaknesses. There are some other differences but these are the most important in my opinion.<br></br>
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Oak-…
The banjo is a relatively simple instrument as far as its construction is concerned, and the few changes Jim Hartel makes are actually very important. His Bouchers have thicker necks since the originals are too thin and prone to stability problems. He also makes his rims out of different, stronger materials, and he does not use the thin, scalloped rim design because of it's inherent weaknesses. There are some other differences but these are the most important in my opinion.<br/>
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Oak- commonly used for pots on original minstrel banjos- is a very unstable wood, and the maple used for necks isn't that stable either. Boucher's design exacerbated this the inherent weaknesses of these woods. There are some original banjos with much thicker and studied rims and necks, but they aren't Bouchers. Don't get me wrong- I'm a huge fan of the Boucher design- it is beautiful and economic (both in cost and labor). I'm a happy owner of a Hartel Boucher... Since Tony quoted some of my…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-07:2477478:Comment:1187802014-10-07T02:40:49.362ZBob Sayershttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/BobSayers
<p>Since Tony quoted some of my earlier posts, I'm going to weigh in here and say that I agree with both of you. Firstly, the classic Boucher models are, from a design standpoint, well-thought-out, extremely handsome, and absolutely unique for their time. Their s-shaped pegheads capped by a crowning finial, their wide flat necks with either a single or double ogee, and their often scalloped rims have some features in common with other early banjos--but not the whole design in one package.…</p>
<p>Since Tony quoted some of my earlier posts, I'm going to weigh in here and say that I agree with both of you. Firstly, the classic Boucher models are, from a design standpoint, well-thought-out, extremely handsome, and absolutely unique for their time. Their s-shaped pegheads capped by a crowning finial, their wide flat necks with either a single or double ogee, and their often scalloped rims have some features in common with other early banjos--but not the whole design in one package. The iconic Fender Stratocaster is a good analogy. A better analogy might be Orville Gibson's iconic Florentine model mandolins (which, by the way, didn't reach their musical potential until after the eccentric genius-founder had left the company). </p>
<p>For his part, Boucher seems to have farmed out his iconic designs to craftsmen of varying skills (look at the variation among all of the banjos in Tony's photograph). He doubtless had to do this to produce the quantities of instruments he's reputed to have sold. However, I wouldn't go so far as John in calling them "elegant cheeseboxes." As Jim Hartel has pointed out, he didn't have to tinker too much with Boucher's original design to produce a durable, and eminently playable instrument. </p> Tony, with all due respect yo…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-06:2477478:Comment:1187722014-10-06T12:02:09.454ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
Tony, with all due respect you hardly even know me or my credentials, which are not limited to "August". So far you have provided nothing to defend your argument other than a few irrelevant facts such as Boucher made "hundreds of banjos" and that you were present when two tables worth were measured. This does not say anything about the quality of these banjos.
Tony, with all due respect you hardly even know me or my credentials, which are not limited to "August". So far you have provided nothing to defend your argument other than a few irrelevant facts such as Boucher made "hundreds of banjos" and that you were present when two tables worth were measured. This does not say anything about the quality of these banjos. So in other words you know ve…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-06:2477478:Comment:1186842014-10-06T09:30:37.387ZTony Thomashttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TonyThomas
<p>So in other words you know very litte about the hundreds of banjos that Boucher had manufactured under his imprint over a period of 40 years having examined one banjo he made and another that based on your august credentials you believe to be an exact copy.</p>
<p>Here is one of two tables of original bouchers we had at the banjo collectors gathering in 2012 where Bob Winans Greg Adams, Roddy Moore, and Pete Ross put on a presentation on Boucher that went for more than one day. Every one of…</p>
<p>So in other words you know very litte about the hundreds of banjos that Boucher had manufactured under his imprint over a period of 40 years having examined one banjo he made and another that based on your august credentials you believe to be an exact copy.</p>
<p>Here is one of two tables of original bouchers we had at the banjo collectors gathering in 2012 where Bob Winans Greg Adams, Roddy Moore, and Pete Ross put on a presentation on Boucher that went for more than one day. Every one of these banjos was measured exactly.</p>
<p>Stan Werbin, George R Gibson (black hat), Pete Ross, Scott Odell and Roddy appear in the picture from the colectors gathering at Ferrum College in 2012</p>
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</div> Tim, that's exactly what I wa…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-04:2477478:Comment:1186682014-10-04T20:58:22.168ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>Tim, that's exactly what I was going to write, but I deleted it before posting because I wasn't sure anyone here would get the comparison. </p>
<p>Tim, that's exactly what I was going to write, but I deleted it before posting because I wasn't sure anyone here would get the comparison. </p> It's iconic.....like a Strat.tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-04:2477478:Comment:1188652014-10-04T20:14:55.146ZTim Twisshttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/TimTwiss
<p>It's iconic.....like a Strat.</p>
<p>It's iconic.....like a Strat.</p> Tony, aside from the period o…tag:minstrelbanjo.ning.com,2014-10-04:2477478:Comment:1186672014-10-04T19:56:44.834ZJohn Cohenhttp://minstrelbanjo.ning.com/profile/JohnCohen
<p>Tony, aside from the period opinions we have about Boucher banjos, I have played an original and a number of exact reproductions. Bouchers were not high quality instruments and had a number of design flaws that affected both their playability and stability. I like to think of them as elegant cheeseboxes. I have also played a number of original banjos from the 1840s and 1850s, many of these being "professional" instruments with the dimensions preferred by the big-time minstrels. In my…</p>
<p>Tony, aside from the period opinions we have about Boucher banjos, I have played an original and a number of exact reproductions. Bouchers were not high quality instruments and had a number of design flaws that affected both their playability and stability. I like to think of them as elegant cheeseboxes. I have also played a number of original banjos from the 1840s and 1850s, many of these being "professional" instruments with the dimensions preferred by the big-time minstrels. In my experience so far, these banjos have almost always been far superior to the Bouchers. I have a large minstrel banjo circa 1850 in my collection that has become my go-to player, and now that I'm accustomed to it I have no intention to play Boucher's design any longer. I do not understand the reenactment community's apparent obsession with the Boucher design, especially the diversity of the surviving early minstrel banjos. </p>
<p>Like you said, they are extremely significant to the history of the banjo, and I am not trying to downplay this. Boucher's design is both elegant and timeless, and there are makers today who will make you one minus the original design flaws (Bob Flescher, Jim Hartel).</p>
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